Allowing HD-DVD Volume Keys to be posted - why?

[buttfacepoop]

I'm curious as to why doom9 is allowing Volume Keys from HD-DVD to be posted. Isn't this in violation of the DMCA?

I understand that doom9 hosts in a different country than the US. However, when WMV drm10 was cracked, posting of decrypting keys (KID/SID) was not allowed.

Is there some discrepancy between these 2 cases that I'm not aware of? Or is it just "expedient means"?

edit: nevertheless, I fully support what everyone is doing here

[communist]

KID/SID were not allowed to be posted because it would allow people who actually dont have the (valid) license to decrypt it. Just look at some posts.. like this (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=902052#post902052). There were a few others asking how to remove DRM from files for which they didn have the license.
You cant do much harm with a HD DVD key except buying an original copy and decrypting it with the posted key.
I hope this makes sense ;)

/EDiT
Also the FairUse4WM programs author clearly states
- This code does NOT allow import of KID/SID pairs to preclude its use for piracy

[buttfacepoop]

KID/SID were not allowed to be posted because it would allow people who actually dont have the (valid) license to decrypt it. Just look at some posts.. like this (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=902052#post902052). There were a few others asking how to remove DRM from files for which they didn have the license.
You cant do much harm with a HD DVD key except buying an original copy and decrypting it with the posted key.
I hope this makes sense ;)

/EDiT
Also the FairUse4WM programs author clearly states

I guess you could share one HD DVD disc among many friends.

But I understand your point. Thanks!

[linx05]

Could someone explain the different between these Volume Keys and CSS keys? As far as I know, the reason CSS keys aren't allowed to be posted is because they are owned by their respected companies. But what about Volume Keys, who owns them?

[blutach]

Communist's analysis is spot on. If you have the key AND the disk, you can decrypt it. The key is not much use without it.

Regards

[setarip_old]

@communist

Hi!KID/SID were not allowed to be posted because it would allow people who actually dont have the (valid) license to decrypt it. Just look at some posts.. like this. There were a few others asking how to remove DRM from files for which they didn have the license.
You cant do much harm with a HD DVD key except buying an original copy and decrypting it with the posted key.I'm afraid I don't see any distinction between the two. You can do as much "harm" with an HD DVD key and, when they become available, a rented HD DVD, as you can with the keys for music that you've "rented" for limited play or play limited to one PC...

[rack04]

@communist

Hi!I'm afraid I don't see any distinction between the two. You can do as much "harm" with an HD DVD key and, when they become available, a rented HD DVD, as you can with the keys for music that you've "rented" for limited play or play limited to one PC...

Are you saying when HD DVD's become available to rent? Because if you are they are already available through Blockbuster and Netflix. Sorry if I misunderstood what you are trying to say but I'm just trying to clarify.

[setarip_old]

Are you saying when HD DVD's become available to rent? Because if you are they are already available through Blockbuster and Netflix.Okay, if that's the case, I can say that, as of right now I'm afraid I don't see any distinction between the two. You can do as much "harm" with an HD DVD key and, now that they've become available, a rented HD DVD, as you can with the keys for music that you've "rented" for limited play or play limited to one PC...

[buttfacepoop]

Okay, if that's the case, I can say that, as of right now I'm afraid I don't see any distinction between the two. You can do as much "harm" with an HD DVD key and, now that they've become available, a rented HD DVD, as you can with the keys for music that you've "rented" for limited play or play limited to one PC...

Hmm, you do have a point there.

Maybe the issue of posting of KID/SID keys should be revisited?

[happycase]

I think that the reason why HD DVD keys are allowed to be posted is because we can't rip movies without them, and this being a site which is dedicated to backing up digital files of various formats, we have to take what we can get for the time being.

[linx05]

Could someone answer my question please?

[communist]

As I said, people were asking for KID/SID for files for which didn even have a license and hence were not allowed to play the files from the get go. Also a lot of DRMed files are available online - making them a prime target for easy distribution by just posting personal KID/SID and the url to them. IIRC one of the 2 values is unique to each player/license so its kind of protecting you aswell.

Of course by being able to decrypt rented discs you can do just about as much harm as with originals. But this has been the case with DVDs aswell.

Thats the cool thing about those copy restrictions / DRM hassles, the honest customer is the first being screwed.

[linx05]

That didn't exactly answer my question.

[communist]

Err sorry that was in reply to setarip_old's comment.

[buttfacepoop]

As I said, people were asking for KID/SID for files for which didn even have a license and hence were not allowed to play the files from the get go. Also a lot of DRMed files are available online - making them a prime target for easy distribution by just posting personal KID/SID and the url to them. IIRC one of the 2 values is unique to each player/license so its kind of protecting you aswell.

Of course by being able to decrypt rented discs you can do just about as much harm as with originals. But this has been the case with DVDs aswell.

Thats the cool thing about those copy restrictions / DRM hassles, the honest customer is the first being screwed.

I think linux05's question is relevant however. Why allow AACS Volume Keys and not CSS keys?

[markrb]

I don't remember any rule against CSS keys on DVD's. IFO's are not allowed because they do contain content.
I don't see any need to post CSS keys anyway since there are already many pieces of software which does that for you already and are available in the download section.

Keys for downloaded material violates the downloaded file rule.

Mark

[Doom9]

Those that don't get the important distinction between providing somebody with means to access content they have no rights to access (protected audio files for which they don't have any license.. be it temporary or permanent), and those that they have a license for need to read the thread again and realize the important distinction between stripping away DRM and copyright infringement.
If you copy a DVD, or HD DVD to your harddisk, you are not committing copyright infringement because at the time you make the copy, you are in physical posession of the disc so we have to assume you're the rightful owner. Even if you rent a disc, you can make a copy. For the rent (or loan) case, the moment you return the disk and keep the copy you have made, you have now infringed the copyright of the issuing studio. But as long as the disc is in your hands, you can make as many copies as you like (uploading / sharing them is another matter that can be dealt with irrespective of whether you have a license to view the content... in that case you'd need a license to redistribute or need to live in a country where copyright law allows redistribution of copies you make - our rules specifically do not consider the possibility of the second option).

Stripping DRM of a song you are not entitled to listen to is something else.. you don't have a license to listen to it.. it's not so much different from sneaking into a concert/ movie theater without a valid ticket. Just as the latter is illegal, providing the means for people without a valid license to gain access to the content is illegal as well.. hence KIDs and SIDs may not be posted here as they constitute a clear aid in committing copyright infringement.

A Volume Key or CSS key just allows you access to a disc in your drive... it only becomes copyright infringement if you violate copyright law - be it by sharing a copy without permission, or by keeping a copy when you are no longer in possession of the disc.

Hence: Posting KID/SIDs = direct help to copyright infringement and posting Volume Keys / CSS keys = allowing people to facilitate different use scenarios (we depart from the presumption of innocence which is the basis for the legal system in most countries) - only an additional deliberate act on part of a forum member can turn the knowledge of a Volume Key / CSS key into copyright infringement. There are plenty of legitimate uses for a (HD)DVD key but there's no legitimate use for getting a KID/SID to access content you are not entitled to access.