Jerky playback on older standalone

[Geekman]

First of all, I am extremely impressed with the level of expertise of the members on this forum. I learn something new every time I peruse the threads.

Please excuse my "newbie"isms, but I am experiencing odd behavior when playing back my rebuilt back up of RV.

I first used the HC encoder with default settings and noticed jerky playback (both video & audio) on an old (but seldom used) Apex standalone. I played the same disc (Ritek DVD-RW) on my new Sony with no problems. I also tried a Verbatim 16X DVD-R burnt @8X with the same behavior. I was trying to rule out the Apex's ability to read recordables. I always use ImgBurn's verify and test on my PC.

Today I switched to QuEnc using Normal Quality Mode and defaults for the remaining settings. I saw the same jerky playback on the Apex standalone and not the Sony. The jerky portions appear to be in similar locations, for example, during the very beginning of the movie.

[zacoz]

Welcome to the forum. :)

If I'm reading your post correctly, then you are seeing jerky playback on your old Apex standalone, regardless of the media or encoder used. Additionally, all have played fine on your Sony (can we assume they also play fine on your PC?).

I'd be tending towards the Apex not liking the recordables, or at least -R/RW discs. You haven't mentioned the burner you are using, but you might want to get a +R disc and if the drive supports it, burn it with booktype set to DVD-ROM for better compatibility chance (in ImgBurn, Tools --> Drive --> Change Booktype). The Apex might better respond to these. You may also want to check you have the latest firmware for your drive. Posting a copy of the ImgBurn log (Help --> ImgBurn logs) may provide additional insight to the guru's.

You may find that a moderator moves this thread to the DVD Burning section of the forum.

[jdobbs]

What version of DVD-RB are you using? If you are using one of the older freeware versions, update to v0.98.2.

Hank315 made some changes to some of the more recent versions of HC encoder that can effect GOP formats. It's a good thing -- but it also exposed a quirk in the way the freeware version of DVD-RB was formatting VOBUs. It's a long story related to how the freeware version was detecting still frames... But, the result could possibly have had the effect you've mentioned on some older players, especially in high-demand/fast motion scenes. I suppose QuEnc could do the same -- although I haven't actually heard of it. It may be more likely with scene detection enabled in QuEnc...

v0.98.2 has an updated authoring engine that adapts better to this scenario.

Of course there's always the recordable issue on older players also, as was mentioned by zacoz...

Northern Illinois, eh? An old stomping ground of mine.

[Edit] Just saw your edit -- says you're using v1.20.4... the authoring engine in the Pro version is rock solid. I'd suspect the player's compatibility. Have you had any problems with any other DVD+-R playback on the Apex?

[Geekman]

Thanks for the prompt replies, gents!

Some more details:
DVD Burner: NEC ND-3550A w/ FW 1.06 (latest available from NEC)

The Apex standalone plays RV backup (Verbatim 16X DVD-R) fine when I use Nero Recode 2 from Nero V6. However, the video quality is not nearly as good as DVD-RB even with Recode's set to best quality and analysis.

I will try zacoz's DVD+R suggestion to narrow it down to the Apex's ability to read recordables.

Another detail: I originally saw the jerky playback on a Panasonic A-120U standalone. That was my first DVD player and cost way too much... :( I donated the Panasonic to my son's school.

I've attached the ImgBurn log for the DVD-RW.

Yes, I hail from Northern Illinois. They still have SW Engineering jobs here. :D

EDIT: Now for the log! Doh!
; //****************************************\\
; ImgBurn Version 2.1.0.0 - Log
; Tuesday, 19 December 2006, 21:23:38
; \\****************************************//
;
;
I 16:40:00 ImgBurn Version 2.1.0.0 started!
I 16:40:00 Microsoft Windows XP Professional (5.1, Build 2600 : Service Pack 2)
I 16:40:00 Initialising SPTI...
I 16:40:00 Searching for SCSI / ATAPI devices...
I 16:40:21 Found 1 DVD-ROM and 2 DVD±RWs!
I 16:40:53 Operation Started!
I 16:40:53 Building Image Tree...
I 16:40:53 Checking Directory Depth...
I 16:40:53 Calculating Totals...
I 16:40:53 Preparing Image...
I 16:40:53 Checking Path Length...
I 16:40:53 Image Size: 4,597,481,472 bytes
I 16:40:53 Image Sectors: 2,244,864
I 16:40:53 Operation Successfully Completed! - Duration: 00:00:00
I 16:41:23 Operation Started!
I 16:41:23 Device: [1:0:0] _NEC DVD_RW ND-3550A 1.06 (F:) (ATA)
I 16:41:23 Media Type: DVD-RW (Disc ID: RITEKW04) (Speeds: 2x, 4x)
I 16:41:23 Quick Erase: Yes
I 16:41:23 Erasing Disc...
I 16:42:10 Operation Successfully Completed! - Duration: 00:00:47
I 16:42:11 Operation Started!
I 16:42:11 Building Image Tree...
I 16:42:11 Checking Directory Depth...
I 16:42:11 Calculating Totals...
I 16:42:11 Preparing Image...
I 16:42:11 Checking Path Length...
I 16:42:11 Image Size: 4,597,481,472 bytes
I 16:42:11 Image Sectors: 2,244,864
I 16:42:13 Operation Successfully Completed! - Duration: 00:00:02
I 16:42:14 Operation Started!
I 16:42:14 Source File: -==/\/[BUILD IMAGE]\/\==-
I 16:42:14 Source File Sectors: 2,244,864 (MODE1/2048)
I 16:42:14 Source File Size: 4,597,481,472 bytes
I 16:42:14 Source File Volume Identifier: RV
I 16:42:14 Source File Application Identifier: IMGBURN V2.1.0.0 - THE ULTIMATE IMAGE BURNER!
I 16:42:14 Source File Implementation Identifier: ImgBurn
I 16:42:14 Source File File System(s): ISO9660, UDF (1.02)
I 16:42:14 Destination Device: [1:0:0] _NEC DVD_RW ND-3550A 1.06 (F:) (ATA)
I 16:42:14 Destination Media Type: DVD-RW (Disc ID: RITEKW04) (Speeds: 2x, 4x)
I 16:42:14 Destination Media Sectors: 2,298,496
I 16:42:14 Write Mode: DVD
I 16:42:14 Write Type: DAO
I 16:42:14 Write Speed: MAX
I 16:42:14 Link Size: Auto
I 16:42:14 Test Mode: No
I 16:42:14 BURN-Proof: Enabled
I 16:42:14 Filling Buffer...
I 16:42:14 Writing LeadIn...
I 16:42:34 Writing Image...
I 16:55:56 Synchronising Cache...
I 16:56:23 Image MD5: ab876523db3e61a3e14e85261ec60cab
I 16:56:23 Operation Successfully Completed! - Duration: 00:14:09
I 16:56:23 Average Write Rate: 5,598 KB/s (4.0x) - Maximum Write Rate: 5,761 KB/s (4.2x)
I 16:56:23 Cycling Tray before Verify...
I 16:56:44 Device Ready!
I 16:56:44 Operation Started!
I 16:56:44 Source Device: [1:0:0] _NEC DVD_RW ND-3550A 1.06 (F:) (ATA)
I 16:56:44 Source Media Type: DVD-RW (Book Type: DVD-RW) (Disc ID: RITEKW04) (Speeds: 2x, 4x)
I 16:56:44 Image File: -==/\/[BUILD IMAGE]\/\==-
I 16:56:44 Image File Sectors: 2,244,864 (MODE1/2048)
I 16:56:44 Image File Size: 4,597,481,472 bytes
I 16:56:44 Image File Volume Identifier: RV
I 16:56:44 Image File Application Identifier: IMGBURN V2.1.0.0 - THE ULTIMATE IMAGE BURNER!
I 16:56:44 Image File Implementation Identifier: ImgBurn
I 16:56:44 Image File File System(s): ISO9660, UDF (1.02)
I 16:56:44 Verifying Sectors...
I 17:02:48 Device MD5: ab876523db3e61a3e14e85261ec60cab
I 17:02:48 Image MD5: ab876523db3e61a3e14e85261ec60cab
I 17:02:49 Operation Successfully Completed! - Duration: 00:06:04
I 17:02:49 Average Verify Rate: 12,334 KB/s (8.9x) - Maximum Verify Rate: 17,933 KB/s (12.9x)
I 21:23:38 Close Request Acknowledged
I 21:23:38 Closing Down...
I 21:23:38 Shutting down SPTI...
I 21:23:38 ImgBurn closed

[chainring]

The 3550A w stock, meaning non-modified NEC firmware, will not bitset a single layer DVD+R. You need Liggy & Dee's 1.Y6, which will bitset all +R discs. Just did a co-workers 3550A today, as a matter of fact. Do that and get ya some of the Verbatim 16x +R 50 packs from either Best Buy or Office Max for $12.99/pack. Look for the "Open/Close" printing on the cakebox to be in Serif font and that'll be CMC made Verbatim's...good stuff.

http://liggydee.cdfreaks.com/page/3550/

[Geekman]

Tried a Fuji DVD+RW on my other burner: Lite-On SOHW-1693S w/ KS0B stock FW. Used ImgBurn to set booktype to DVD-ROM. Same results: noticeable audio drop outs w/ harder to see jerky video on Apex, but plays fine on Sony. I'm a little reluctant to try DVD+R on Apex since the Nero Recode 2 test worked on both players. BTW, I used ImgBurn even with the Nero Recode version (just "burned" to hard disk).

Thanks for the tip about NEC ND-3550A bit setting. Was wondering why ImgBurn complained when I tried it. However, I am a little cautious about using patched FW.

[steptoe]

Patched firmware should give no more problems than using official firmware, so long as you follow the procedure to update the firmware for your drive

Some firmware has auto-installation, just double-click the file and it checks and upgrades only if needed, much simpler

The firmware will have been tested and re-tested along with what the patching is actually achieving. Normally its removing things like unlocking the region of your drive so it will not lock the region, increasing read speed limits if its for reading from DVD-burners (but I use a decent DVD-ROM drive to read, after all thats what they are designed for) or adding or altering media codes that the official firmware doesn't support for whatever reason or making media more likely to produce better burns


I have a Pioneer 111-D that I read it was possible it DVD-RAM drive capable, just by using firmware to fool the drive into thinking its something its not, then applying official firmware to turn it into the Pioneer 111-L

It works fine and has been tested with DVD-RAM media since, even if it was a bit of a long winded procedure, so I assume the drive was already capable of it, just Pioneer used firmware to block that option (that way they can charge more for the extra options but produce one drive). All I did was re-enable it via firmware


I've also just upgraded my firmware again, using an official upgrade, so now I have better burns and better media compatability, I've checked with media testing software and it has improved burns

Upgrading firmware can help solve media problems and produce a better drive than before by solving media problems or adding media that wasn't there before, increasing burn speeds for updated media, etc, etc


Just remember never turn your computer off, even if it looks like its doing nothing when upgrading firmware, just let it finish. It may take a few seconds or it may take a couple of minutes. Just leave it alone until it says its finished, reboot your computer and use your drive as before

[jdobbs]

Can you also post your REBUILDER.INI and the REBUILDER.LOG files?

Are you possibly doing any pre or post processing on the source or the DVD-RB files? What you are describing can be a symptom that shows when the maximum bitrate gets greater than DVD spec or greater than the original bitrate.

[Geekman]

@jdobbs
Does sound like a bitrate issue. I don't believe it's a disc read capability problem.

Preprocessing was done;
1) Used VobBlanker 2.1.1.0 to blank out previews & annoying stills.
2) Used PgcEdit V8.0beta7 to jump to first PGC (main title root menu) & delete uncalled PGCs. (beta7 had a bug that affected delete uncalled PGCs, but I don't think it applies to this DVD)
3) Used FixVTS 1.602 after PGCEdit to clean up VOBs.

The jerky portion begins at the opening "Columbia" scene; the audio cuts in & out (again, only on the Apex standalone).

No post processing was done on the DVD-RB resultant files.

I've attached rebuilder.log, rebuilder.ini and added rebuilder.inf just in case that helps.

Thanks much!

@steptoe
I really appreciate the firmware tips. I have flashed DVD drive FW before; my major concern is with the patch integrity. Don't know which tools are used to patch (hexeditor, assembler, etc.) and the amount of testing performed on the patches.

[jdobbs]

Could you do me a favor? Run a disc through with absolutely no pre or post processing. I'd like to make sure it isn't a contributing factor. Sometimes third party packages can distort the integrity of the SCR/DTS/PTS relationships, which might cause audio problems. I've read that some of the older players used firmware/software that looks to the audio for master timing...

If you're familiar with some of the tools like VOBEDIT, maybe you could extract the first cell (containing the Columbia scene) and send it to me (dvd-rb@dvd-rb.com). I could then run some spec tests against it.

[Geekman]

I tried another title yesterday with excellent results. I did preprocess with VobBlanker 2.1.1.0 & PgcEdit v8beta8 (latest).
I can try RV w/o pre/post if needed. I neglected to mention I used RipIt4Me 1.6.0.0 to rip RV. RV has arccos.

I extracted RV's first cell with PgcDemux (nice tool jsoto!). Unfortunately the extracted files are 72MB.
I have these files from PgcDemux:
*.ac3
*.sup (subpictures)
*.txt (log & celltimes)
Videofile.m2v
OR
VTS_01_1.VOB (with everything combined)
I tried zip and rar best compressions, but the video & audio are already compressed. :(

Do you still want this sent to you? If yes, which files? (the vob or the separate demuxed streams)

Your explanation makes a great deal of sense where the older players are using the audio for timing.

I am scratching the surface on DVD authoring, MPEG formats, etc. I don't know what SCR/DTS/PTS relationships are. I know I'll be getting "DVD Demystified" for Christmas. :)
I'll have to get up to speed on MPEG for work.

Happy Holidays!

[jdobbs]

I could set up a temporary FTP account for you if you if you'd like. What I really need is a multiplexed set (the VOB) so I can look at the timing. Do you know if pgcDemux modifies it at all, or just writes it as it exists in the source?

[Geekman]

Sorry, I don't know if pgcDemux modifies the multiplexed vob file, jsoto may though. I wanted to find an easy to use tool. I do have VobEdit, but I did not know how to extract the cell.
I don't mind emailing the vob; I wanted to make sure it was OK with you.

In parallel, I have ripped RV with RipIt4Me 1.6.3.0, no jump to main menu, no FixVTS processing. Just rebuilding now. Will burn and provide results.

EDIT: Success! No audio drop outs and jittering video on the Apex with;
- Rip using RipIt4Me 1.6.3.0
- no FixVTS post rip processing
- no jump to main menu
- Used DVD-RB 1.20.4 w/ HC encoder normal quality

Next test;
- Rip using RipIt4Me w/ jump to main menu, Bypass annoying PGCs
- FixVTS post rip (launched by RipIt4Me)
- DVD-RB w/ HC encoder. I'll blank the first play previews.

Blanking all previews improves reduction percentage by 7%. Not sure how significant that is.

RV has a telestrator w/ director comments mode. Does some video overlaying with director audio dubs. Hmmm...

[jdobbs]

Thanks.