Scenarist 4.1 avc/vc1 assets

[McCrash]

I managed to grab scenarist 4.1 Hd-DVD standard content today, i was unsuccesful at using any avc or vc1 assets. Anybody else tried it out ?

[Eric69]

Try what out in what way?

[Malow]

im get it to work with mainconcept encoder, using an "AVC-HD"@ level 4.1 (configuring gop to 15) elementary stream, or an mpeg2-hd encoded in procoder.

BUT, h.264 with x264 i can't... i guess because scenarist need a elementary stream, i was thinking that raw stream = elementary stream... :(

how i get a elementary stream from x264??? ;)

i'm getting errors with elecard converter studio... even with their default hd-dvd settings....

[McCrash]

Try what out in what way?
Adding avc and vc-1 assets to an hd-dvd scenario.

[McCrash]

BUT, h.264 with x264 i can't... i guess because scenarist need a elementary stream, i was thinking that raw stream = elementary stream... :(


What the hell is an elementary stream ?:confused:

[Susana]

In a program stream, like .mpg .vob .ts .avi . mp4 .... files, you can multiplex a elementary stream of audio, like .mp2 .mp3 .ac3 .aac .dts .... files, and a elementary stream of video, like .m2v .mpg ... files, and maybe a elementary stream of subtitles like .sup ... files.

program stream is the container
elementary streams are the content

and both are file types with their fields, properties, ...

[McCrash]

Oh i see.

So as a .h264 file is not a container afaik, a program like Scenarist4 should be able to load them as video assets, shouldn't it?

What about VC1 ? WMV is a container, is it not ? What kind of file is a vc1 elementary stream ?

[Malow]

i guess we have program stream, elementary stream, raw stream...

tried even with transport streams... ;)

it need elementary stream....

yes, wmv is a container, neuron2 was looking for a way to demux in another post... :(

the strange thing, mainconcept encoder generate a .mpv stream, (elementary) and work, but wen played, it use a mpeg2 demuxer....

????????

[bond]

elementary stream = raw stream = .264/.h264

with x264 demux from .mp4 to .264 with yamb/mp4box

[McCrash]

Then obviously, the Scenarist4 i found does not handle anything but mpeg2.

[Malow]

elementary stream = raw stream = .264/.h264

mmm... well, scenarist say "unsuported format"

is something missing in this raw stream?

[easy2Bcheesy]

Then obviously, the Scenarist4 i found does not handle anything but mpeg2.

You are sailing dangerously close to violating rule #6 of the forum.

[McCrash]

Whatever you say boss.

[bond]

mmm... well, scenarist say "unsuported format"

is something missing in this raw stream?propably it doesnt support raw streams

[D3s7]

Scenarist is purely a muxing engine.. there is no conversion accept wav -> ac3 and that's done from an external application.

I wouldn't expect Scenarist to accept much besides Mpeg1,2 and maybe 4

[Malow]

till now, ive tested with mpeg2 ES and h.264 ES from mainconcept encoder. im unable to generate a vc-1 ES.

build a simple hd-dvd, menus, etc, using avc. plays fine on powerdvd hd-dvd.

tested also h.264 in mp4, mpg, ts.... just elementary works...

as i cant use x264 to make video for scenarist, so, im testing with mpeg2 from procoder...

[McCrash]

till now, ive tested with mpeg2 ES and h.264 ES from mainconcept encoder. im unable to generate a vc-1 ES.


What kind of file was your h264 es from mainconcept encoder ? A .264, .h264, .mpeg, .m4v ? When i try to add an assest, there are no .264 or .h264 in the extenstion list.

[Sagittaire]

Unfortunaly x264 don't produce compliant HDDVD/BD elementary stream ...

[Trahald]

malow.. can you provide a small sample of an h264 es?

[Malow]

What kind of file was your h264 es from mainconcept encoder ? A .264, .h264, .mpeg, .m4v ? When i try to add an assest, there are no .264 or .h264 in the extenstion list.

an h.264 elementary it uses .mpv

[Malow]

malow.. can you provide a small sample of an h264 es?

sure!. just wait a little, at home i send to rapidshare ;)

[Malow]

http://rapidshare.com/files/8375020/h.264_es.mpv.html

31 sec, 1920x1080 12000kpbs VBR, 46MB

from my friend hdv camera... ;)

[McCrash]

Man, it works !

You said this file was made by mainconcept encoder ?

Does this mean all my hd h264 files aren't hd-dvd compliant ? Or do we need somehow transform a .h264 into a .mpv ?

[Trahald]

@mccrash

the h264 file needs to be a .mpv (elementary stream ie without a container) . there wasnt much use for elementary mpeg-4 streams til now so nothing really makes them (there isnt really much playback support). i have a feeling proper demuxers will start sprouting up soon.

[ps] hopefully more mpeg-4 encoders will start including a program stream output option

[McCrash]

Elecard xmuxer pro demux can demux TS to mpv, i am going to try muxing an demuxing Malow's file and see if it's still compliant.

[Malow]

You said this file was made by mainconcept encoder ?

yes, u can see the logo on top-left.. .;)

elecard uses the same encoding engine, but i can't make a compilant stream. old mainconcept h.264 encoder dont work also. they fixed something in this new version (trial 2.1)

OT: the trial logo are so small in HD, we can use with no harm.. ;)

[McCrash]

Indeed, I muxed your mpv file into a transport stream with xmuxer pro, then demuxed back into a mpv that is longer accepted by scenarist.

[Trahald]

mccrash.. i did what you did.. but then took a hex editor.. inserted HEX:(00 00 00 01 09 10) in front of the new file xmuxer made. and poof.. its accepted. the 00 00 00 01 is a sync word but i cant find what the 09 10 specifically represents. i can only find info on the traditional mpeg2 header codes. but anyways.. it works.. gonna play around with some other streams i have to see whats needed to get them to work

[Malow]

gonna play around with some other streams i have to see whats needed to get them to work

i will play too! :D

[McCrash]

Uh? That didn't work for me, the mpv produced by xmuxerpro has already 00 00 00 01 41 9A in front of it. Wheiter i replace those numbers by yours or add them in front, scenarist don't accept the mpv anymore.
My xmuxerpo is 2.1.55 (61024)

[bond]

@mccrash

the h264 file needs to be a .mpv (elementary stream ie without a container) . there wasnt much use for elementary mpeg-4 streams til now so nothing really makes them (there isnt really much playback support). i have a feeling proper demuxers will start sprouting up soon.

[ps] hopefully more mpeg-4 encoders will start including a program stream output optionthe file from Malow is a .264 elementary stream (btw .264 is the only official extension for raw avc streams, as created by the reference encoder)
its easy to create such elementary streams, be it from mpg ts or ps or mp4 with most free tools widely used (ffmpeg, mplayer, mp4box, mp4creator...)
you can also create elementary streams with x264...

that said .264 was widely used till now as intermediate format (you can also play them with mplayer for example)

to be compliant with hddvd you need to care about more than the format tough, therefore i read out the headers for the stream posted:
Nal length 45 start code 4 bytes
ref 3 type 7 Sequence parameter set
profile: 100
constaint_set0_flag: 0
constaint_set1_flag: 0
constaint_set2_flag: 0
constaint_set3_flag: 0
level_idc: 41
seq parameter set id: 0
chroma format idx: 1
bit depth luma minus8: 0
bit depth chroma minus8: 0
Qpprime Y Zero Transform Bypass flag: 0
Seq Scaling Matrix Present Flag: 0
log2_max_frame_num_minus4: 4
pic_order_cnt_type: 0
log2_max_pic_order_cnt_lsb_minus4: 4
num_ref_frames: 4
gaps_in_frame_num_value_allowed_flag: 0
pic_width_in_mbs_minus1: 119 (1920)
pic_height_in_map_minus1: 33
frame_mbs_only_flag: 0
derived height: 1088
mb_adaptive_frame_field_flag: 0
direct_8x8_inference_flag: 1
frame_cropping_flag: 1
frame_crop_left_offset: 0
frame_crop_right_offset: 0
frame_crop_top_offset: 0
frame_crop_bottom_offset: 2
vui_parameters_present_flag: 1
aspect_ratio_info_present_flag: 1
aspect_ratio_idc:1
overscan_info_present_flag: 0
video_signal_info_present_flag: 1
video_format: 2
video_full_range_flag: 0
colour_description_present_flag: 1
colour_primaries: 1
transfer_characteristics: 1
matrix_coefficients: 1
chroma_loc_info_present_flag: 0
timing_info_present_flag: 1
num_units_in_tick: 1001
time_scale: 60000
fixed_frame_scale: 1
nal_hrd_parameters_present_flag: 1
cpb_cnt_minus1: 0
bit_rate_scale: 3
cpb_size_scale: 7
bit_rate_value_minus1[0]: 39062
cpb_size_value_minus1[0]: 45775
cbr_flag[0]: 0
initial_cpb_removal_delay_length_minus1: 31
cpb_removal_delay_length_minus1: 17
dpb_output_delay_length_minus1: 17
time_offset_length: 24
vcl_hrd_parameters_present_flag: 0
low_delay_hrd_flag: 0
pic_struct_present_flag: 1
motion_vectors_over_pic_boundaries_flag: 1
max_bytes_per_pic_denom: 0
max_bits_per_mb_denom: 0
log2_max_mv_length_horizontal: 10
log2_max_mv_length_vertical: 10
num_reorder_frames: 1
max_dec_frame_buffering: 4
Nal length 10 start code 4 bytes
ref 3 type 8 Picture parameter set
pic_parameter_set_id: 0
seq_parameter_set_id: 0
entropy_coding_mode_flag: 1
pic_order_present_flag: 0
num_slice_groups_minus1: 0
num_ref_idx_l0_active_minus1: 7
num_ref_idx_l1_active_minus1: 7
weighted_pred_flag: 1
weighted_bipred_idc: 0
pic_init_qp_minus26: 0
pic_init_qs_minus26: 0
chroma_qp_index_offset: 1
deblocking_filter_control_present_flag: 1
constrained_intra_pred_flag: 0
redundant_pic_cnt_present_flag: 0
transform_8x8_mode_flag: 1
pic_scaling_matrix_present_flag: 0
second_chroma_qp_index_offset: 1it tells you that the stream is high profile, uses cabac, loop, 4 reference frames, weigthed prediction, interlacing (non mbaff)...

also it uses access unit delimiters required in the stream when using mpeg ps (as done by hddvd)
additionally there are also surely requirements for specific gop structures aso

the only problem is we dont know the exact specs yet :D

[Trahald]

@mcrash

you dont replace those numbers.. you have to insert the numbers in front (so you would have 00 00 00 01 09 10 00 00 00 01 41 9a ...)

your hex editer has to have an insert function.

[McCrash]

Yet Mainconcept encoder is able to produce such a compliant elementary stream.

I am not used to h264 encoding, i was working mainly with xvid till now. But the percpetive to recompress a h264 hd capture into an hd-dvd compliant h264 elementary stream is my ultimate goal so far.

Is x264 unable to produce such a stream ?

PS: a vc1 elementary stream would be nice also, if that ever existed.

[McCrash]

you dont replace those numbers.. you have to insert the numbers in front (so you would have 00 00 00 01 09 10 00 00 00 01 41 9a ...)

your hex editer has to have an insert function.

Yes yes that's what i also did and the file is no longer accepted here.

[bond]

@mcrash

you dont replace those numbers.. you have to insert the numbers in front (so you would have 00 00 00 01 09 10 00 00 00 01 41 9a ...)

your hex editer has to have an insert function.those are the access unit delimiters i was talking about. at the start and between every frame there needs to be this AUD when placing avc in mpg ps or ts

when placing avc in other containers, like mp4 or mkv, you dont need those AUDs, therefore not every avc stream/encoder has those

in x264 you can enable/disabling writing AUDs into the stream

Is x264 unable to produce such a stream ?it is surely able to produce such a stream. the only problem is we dont know the hddvd specs to know what settings are allowed and which ones arent...

PS: a vc1 elementary stream would be nice also, if that ever existed.there is none. simply demuxing the wmv9 video stream from .wmv to raw doesnt seem to produce a useable stream (at least till now)

[McCrash]

Can sombody give me some directions ? What would be the best tools to recompress a .264 (demuxed from transport stream) into another .264 (hopefully hd-dvd compliant)?

[bond]

Can sombody give me some directions ? What would be the best tools to recompress a .264 (demuxed from transport stream) into another .264 (hopefully hd-dvd compliant)?well until we know the specs you will need to use an encoder tool that claims to be able to produce a hddvd compliant stream

with all other streams you will not be sure whether they are hddvd compliant unless you try them on a hddvd hardware player

[McCrash]

well until we know the specs you will need to use an encoder tool that claims to be able to produce a hddvd compliant stream

with all other streams you will not be sure whether they are hddvd compliant unless you try them on a hddvd hardware player

If scenarist accept the resulting stream that's enough for me for the moment.

So i demuxed a transport stream and then used avc2avi but x264 does not want to use the avi as input. It says "avis [error]: unsupported input format (h264)" :eek:

[bond]

If scenarist accept the resulting stream that's enough for me for the moment.

So i demuxed a transport stream and then used avc2avi but x264 does not want to use the avi as input. It says "avis [error]: unsupported input format (h264)" :eek: avi should not be used with avc anymore and hardly anyone does so

can you play the original .ts file in a directshow player? if no, install the haali media splitter and ffdshow.
create an .avs script loading the .ts file (no need to demux to raw .264)

feed this .avs into x264 and encode to .264. you can try to use megui for encoding with x264 which includes a hddvd profile that should make x264 use the features supported by hddvd

try to feed the resulting .264 to scenarist

[McCrash]

In fact i tried that first but x264 tell me this : avis [error]: unsupported input format (YUY2)

The avs only contains a DirectShowSource("whatever.ts")

[bond]

the decoder you are using outputs YUY2, which it should not do

check whether you can change the output colorspace in the decoder to YV12 (the avc stream itself is also YV12) so no colorspace conversions are done

you can also add converttoyv12() at the end of the script, but this means a yv12->yuy2->yv12 conversion thats not necessary

[McCrash]

Okay thx a lot, CoreAvc was responsible, switched to ffdshow and it works. I am going to try some guis and keep you posted.

[bond]

Okay thx a lot, CoreAvc was responsible, switched to ffdshow and it works. I am going to try some guis and keep you posted.you can set the output colorspace in coreavc's gui. coreavc is faster than ffdshow

[CruNcher]

you have to keep alot of stuff correct to the standard as bond allready mentioned FPS, Resolution Profile, SAR,Gop, AUD everything has to be correct or it wont be accepted for sure :) also x264 writes encoding information into the bitstream maybe thats a problem here too.

[McCrash]

Well well, after a few attempts with x264 and megui, i decided to give mainconcept encoder a try.
The encoder picks up directshow but it crashes on my TS stream when i go into the advanced settings, so i gave it my h264 avi made with avc2avi instead and encoded it to elementary stream (mpv) with high profile.
The resulting mpv was not accepted by scenarist on my first attempt because of a gop size problem that had to be 30 or lower. So i decreased the keyframe interval in the advanced settings to 15 and voila, scenarist loaded the file. I then builded the project and a nice HDDVD_TS folder was born.

[Trahald]

The resulting mpv was not accepted by scenarist on my first attempt because of a gop size problem that had to be 30 or lower. So i decreased the keyframe interval in the advanced settings to 15 and voila, scenarist loaded the file. .
thats the difference between the other files. files out put by mainconcept are being fully scanned at least(which takes a few seconds for these very short files). then it will either say accepted, or it will tell you why it wasnt. with the other raw files or h264 files or ts files it is failing immediately. seems it is reading a few bytes, decides it has no clue what its reading and gives up.

[chadamir]

Mainconcept 2.1 does in fact work. I can confirm sorenson squeeze does not. Ifoedit does not read these ifos so not much to be learned there.

[bond]

Well well, after a few attempts with x264 and megui, i decided to give mainconcept encoder a try.
The encoder picks up directshow but it crashes on my TS stream when i go into the advanced settings, so i gave it my h264 avi made with avc2avi instead and encoded it to elementary stream (mpv) with high profile.
The resulting mpv was not accepted by scenarist on my first attempt because of a gop size problem that had to be 30 or lower. So i decreased the keyframe interval in the advanced settings to 15 and voila, scenarist loaded the file. I then builded the project and a nice HDDVD_TS folder was born.how did you encode with x264? did you take into account what cruncher wrote?

[Sagittaire]

how did you encode with x264? did you take into account what cruncher wrote?

Here the compliant setting for HDDVD/BD compliant stream:
HDDVD use MPEG4 AVC HP@L4.1:
- CABAC, 8*8dct, inloop, CQM, wpred, Pref, Bref are compliant with the profil
- Max GOP at 0.6006 sec, max adaptative bframe at 2, max reference frame at 4 for P and 3 for B, max motion vector lenght at 512 pixels, max bitrate at 29.4 Mbps, cpb at 30000 Kbits

x264.exe --keyint 15 --min-keyint 1 --vbv-maxrate 28000 --vbv-bufsize 30000 --mvrange 512 --level 4.1 --bframe 2 --b-rdo --bime --weightb --ref 3 --mixed-refs --direct auto --deblock -1:-1 --crf 10 --qcomp 0.75 --ipratio 1.10 --pbratio 1.30 --partitions "all" --8x8dct --me "umh" --subme 7 --no-fast-pskip --no-dct-decimate --trellis 2 --progress -o H264_18Mbps.mp4 HDDVD.avs


but x264 don't produce HDDVD/BD compliant elementary stream because:
- vbv work correctly only in CBR mode for x264, vbv in multipass mode fail and crf mode too.
- x264 don't write HRD parameters in the bitstream.


Actually you can't use x264 for make HDDVD/BD compliant stream ... :-(

[bond]

sagi, dont forget the access unit delimiters:
--aud

[Trahald]

but x264 don't produce HDDVD/BD compliant elementary stream because:
- vbv work correctly only in CBR mode for x264, vbv in multipass mode fail and crf mode too.
- x264 don't write HRD parameters in the bitstream.

Actually you can't use x264 for make HDDVD/BD compliant stream ... :-(

yeah... i looked at my x264 output and then the mainconcept output in the hex viewer.. and heres what i see.Reference h264 es (mainconcept)
0x00000001

gop header
09 10 ?? at the beginning of reference elementary h264 stream - no other data in header
67 64 ?? second header in reference elementary h264 stream - 40 bytes data
68 e8 ?? third header in reference stream 4 bytes
06 00 ?? fourth header in reference stream 18 bytes
65 88 ?? fifth header in reference stream large (picture header?)

picture
09 30 ?? after large segment (0x65) - no other data
06 01 ?? 14 bytes
41 9a ?? large (picture?)

or

picture
09 30 ?? after large segment (0x65) - no other data
06 01 ?? 14 bytes
01 9e ?? large (picture?)

above headers repeat


AVC I made test_avc_video.raw (x264 demulltiplex with yamb)

0x00000001

gop
06 05 ?? at the beginning .. contains open text of the encoder used and parameters used
67 4d ?? 21 bytes
68 ce ?? 3 bytes
65 88 ?? data segment (picture?)

picture
41 9a ?? data segment (picture?)

or

picture
01 9e ?? data segment (picture?)

repeat above (either 41 or 01)the x264 has the extra 0x06 header (which is just text of the settings used) which wasnt in the elementary stream. i dont think that hurts anything... but its missing headers info in the group header area and missing headers in the picture area.

im pretty sure once what is missing is under stood, that the file can just be updated with the extra header info and a reencoding would not be necessary

[chadamir]

Trahald, would it be possible to just replace the x264 header with the mainconcept header.

Also, I tried elecard converter studio which uses the same codec as mainconcept (15K free frames). It does not work. You might check the difference between those two encodes and see how the header has changed.

[Malow]

i think scenarist wants to sell their encodig software... ;)

i mean, really wants.

[chadamir]

i think scenarist wants to sell their encodig software... ;)

i mean, really wants.

It's possible, but they have to follow a standard like everyone else. It's more likely they have one of the few encoders that can meet the standard. The documentation in scenarist 4 is a little lacking in terms of what qualifies as compliant. There's also a huge price difference between the encoder and scenarist.

A small scale dvd place could afford scenarist, but not cinevision.

[chadamir]

http://www.dvd-logic.com/hddemuxer.htm someone posted this over on avsforum. Not sure if it will be helpful to anyone but its there.

[Trahald]

im gonna look at h264_parse source (what bond used to show the header info)to figure out the headers.. hopefully i can rig something to redo the streams.

[Trahald]

Trahald, would it be possible to just replace the x264 header with the mainconcept header.
while that actually might get the streams accepted. if info is blindly stuck in there it may misinterpret the stream and cause it to fail later at compile. or it will output a dvd that is unusable.

[chadamir]

I demuxed a ts with h264 from a broadcast and it would not take the raw (it was an incomplete file so I don't know if that'd matter). After the raw failed I muxed it into a vob, an mpv, and an mpg all of which failed. The original ts failed too.

[chadamir]

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=696947 I hope that's of some interest.

Edit: and this http://forums.microsoft.com/MSDN/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=430427&SiteID=1

Edit: This guys blog is cool and has some info about why hd-dvd is better or something (he mentions picture in picture commentaries) and how to make cool menu stuff in xml. http://blogs.msdn.com/ptorr/ I think you might be able to pick up stuff about spec from msft blogs and that forum.

[Trahald]

this post describes some of whats missing.. http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=865484#post865484 thats what i get for not keeping up with x264 threads. :rolleyes:

i tried to hex edit the type access unit info (0x09) with search and replace into my entire test file and didnt help, so it appears i need the sei (0x06) info too. the sei data is a tad more meaningful than the access unit info i dont know if i will have time to really figure it out or even if the data is recreatable from the original stream. so still hoping i find something that already exists or someone else makes it. (or support is added to x264 :) )

[chadamir]

Well do they know what to add to x264 or is it all hddvd spec that no one has access to.

[Malow]

It's possible, but they have to follow a standard like everyone else. It's more likely they have one of the few encoders that can meet the standard.

scenarist should come with a demuxing tool or accept program streams.... :(

[chadamir]

scenarist should come with a demuxing tool or accept program streams.... :(

What we actually need is for someone to come out with a tool that checks if the stream is spec (which I believe there is, not sure) and we need a tool that can properly mux that into a format that works. Mainconcept's encoder works, but you're locked in. Also, cinevision probably has a demuxing tool.

[Golgot13]

Hi all,

First, x264 can not make compliant H264 file (play fine on HD DVD player from Toshiba or X360).
There is some problem with VBV, SEI,... I test it the last summer (you can see my post this forum and x264 developper known it).

Second, there is lot of H264 software compliant with HD DVD :
- Mainconcept software (because Sonic with CineVision use Mainconcept SDK)
- Ateme software because you have access at all options
- KDDI software (KDDI company work with MemoryTech)
- Tiger AVC from Thomson (developped for HDDVD and BD)
- Fraunhofer software (all H264 options)

Third, there is only, now, PEP encoder from Microsoft which can make compliant VC1 video file.
All other solutions from Microsoft can not make compliant VC1 file.
All VC1 video file in HD DVD sell on the market was encoded with Microsoft software (may be 1/100
or 2/100 was made with Inlet tool, I'm not sure).


Last, all HD DVD on market (HD DVD with HDi function) was made with MemoryTech software
(98/100, may be 99/100). There were lot of problem with Sonic tool (correct now) to do compliant HD DVD.
To test the compliance of video file you can use DCA software.
And to test HD DVD disk compliance, you can use MemoryTech/Toshiba software.



Golgot13

[Sagittaire]

Here the compliant setting for HDDVD/BD compliant stream:
HDDVD use MPEG4 AVC HP@L4.1:
- for the profil: CABAC, 8*8dct, inloop, CQM, wpred, Pref, Bref
- for the level: Max GOP at 0.6006 sec, max adaptative bframe at 2, max reference frame at 4 for P and 3 for B, max motion vector lenght at 512 pixels, max bitrate at 29.4 Mbps, cpb at 30000 Kbits

Sonic scenarist accept only elementary stream:
- .264, .h264 ... for MPEG4 AVC
- .m2v, .m2p ... for MPEG2
- .vc1 or something like that ... for VC1

x264 produce perfect compliant stream but there are not good information in the bitstream.
Actualy you can't use x264 for HDDVD/BD multiplexing ... :-(

[chadamir]

Sagi, how much modification would be needed to make x264 compliant?

[Sagittaire]

Sagi, how much modification would be needed to make x264 compliant?

hmmm ...

1) x264 fail to respect vbv setting in multipass mode, you must use CBR mode for that.

2) For bitstream:
- HRD parameters
- EOS code
- SEI parameters

[chadamir]

So I've done some test encodes and I've noticed that playback in windvd is choppy and weird. When I mux to mp4 it's fine though (as opposed to scenarist). I wonder if it's windvd or scenarist.

Edit: Not sure if its cause it was a 24 fps source and I converted it to 29.97 or what. 25 fps h264 (reencoded) from european broadcast is perfect at 1080p.

Edit 2: 29.97 source worked fine. =/

Edit 3: Ok the original source I was talking about worked better with tomsmocomp plugin instead of anything else. I need to try a whole movie though before I can comment for sure.

[MuTeK]

elecard uses the same encoding engine, but i can't make a compilant stream
try, this prifile.

[dvdboy]

So I've done some test encodes and I've noticed that playback in windvd is choppy and weird. When I mux to mp4 it's fine though (as opposed to scenarist). I wonder if it's windvd or scenarist.

I've just encoded some content with MainConcept 2.1, and finally managed to get all the settings correct for a succesful import into Scenarist 4.01 SCA.

My footage was captured from NTSC Digi, and so encoded as 720x480 video, with an average of 6Mbps and a max of 8Mbps.

Audio was 192Kbps AC-3

Files play back fine on the PC, as elementary streams, but I get the weird choppy playback like chadamir when playing back on a Toshiba HD-A1 with latest firmware.

I've done two encodes to rule out a field dominance issue.

Bitrate is low enough that it shouldn't be causing problems...

Could Scenarist be only fully compatible with the Cinevision encoder? Could this be some kind of funky muxing issue with Scenarist?

Any other thoughts?

[chadamir]

What frame rate? If the footage is interlaced do not deinterlace it, rather encode it as interlaced.

[Susana]

What did you used to burn? In which burning mode ?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=705146

¿
4. Burn your HD DVD folder to a DVD recordable using Nero Burning ROM.

Technique 1 - preferred (works with Nero version 7):

(Contributed by pteittinen.)

a. Launch Nero Burning ROM and select "DVD-ROM (UDF)" on the left side of the screen (you may need to scroll down).
b. Under the "Multisession" tab, select the "No Multisession" radio button.
b. Click on the "UDF" tab.
c. In the "Options" pull-down (or the checkbox under "Advanced," depending on your version of Nero), select "Enable Xbox (TM) compatibility mode."
d. Disregard any warnings and continue.
e. Click "New."
f. Drop the HVDVD_TS folder you just created into the root directory of the compilation (column on the far left).
g. Burn the disc by clicking on the Disc/Lit Match icon at the top.

?

[dvdboy]

What frame rate? If the footage is interlaced do not deinterlace it, rather encode it as interlaced.

The footage was 29.97, interlaced so I tried both top field and bottom field dominance on the encoding. No De-Interlacing.

What did you used to burn? In which burning mode ?.

I used Nero Burning Rom > DVD VIDEO with a dummy IFO / BUP in the VIDEO_TS folder. I'm not in work now, but I will try the process you listed on tuesday.

I'm running Scenarist 4.01, and I'm wondering if there is an update because this does seem like some strange muxing bug. Does anyone know what the latest version is?

[chadamir]

I misread. I don't have a standalone. Try having scenarist make an image and then burn the image. I don't think you should be burning as dvd.

[dvdboy]

It's a 'hack' I'll grant you, but the disc is recognised as a HD DVD in the player.

Chadamir, did you manage to fix your playback issues?

[chadamir]

It's a 'hack' I'll grant you, but the disc is recognised as a HD DVD in the player.

Chadamir, did you manage to fix your playback issues?

Yea, it was the deinterlacing. Also, don't rule out the media.

[bond]

try, this prifile.anyone tried those settings? Malow?

[Sagittaire]

Here if you want a 1080p HDDVD image demo at only 6Mbps:
http://dl-3.free.fr/52616e646f6d495682d305d84f3697a3c53da2d90867da86bd9d081cf33826cf/Departed.iso

Encoding with H264 (Elecard beta) and quality is really high (more than 47 dB for OPSNR)
Audio is simple DD at 448 Kbps.
Mux by Scenarist (but not my work for muxing part ... I don't have Scenarist).

With H264 it will be possible to put compliant HDDVD structure file on simple DVD9 with very high quality ("HDDVD like quality"):
+ Video: H264 1080p at 6-8 Mbps
+ Audio: Multiple DD 5.1 at 448 Kbps or DD+ 7.1 at 640 Kbps
+ avdanced HDDVD menu, chapters, subtitles

[bond]

With H264 it will be possible to put compliant HDDVD structure file on simple DVD9 with very high quality ("HDDVD like quality"):
+ Video: H264 1080p at 6-8 Mbps
+ Audio: Multiple DD 5.1 at 448 Kbps or DD+ 7.1 at 640 Kbps
+ avdanced HDDVD menu, chapters, subtitlesthe question is whether the hddvd specs allow 1080p on dvd media or only normal D1 dvd resolutions...

[dvdboy]

I've certainly done MPEG-2 1080i for a tradeshow using Ulead's Movie Factory 5, so there should be no reason for doing H264.

Certainly, at the moment with the lack of HD DVD-R media, authoring houses are having to cut their projects up to test parts on DVD media.

[Susana]

Here if you want a 1080p HDDVD image demo at only 6Mbps:
http://dl-3.free.fr/52616e646f6d495682d305d84f3697a3c53da2d90867da86bd9d081cf33826cf/Departed.iso

Encoding with H264 (Elecard beta) and quality is really high (more than 47 dB for OPSNR)
Audio is simple DD at 448 Kbps.
Mux by Scenarist (but not my work for muxing part ... I don't have Scenarist).

With H264 it will be possible to put compliant HDDVD structure file on simple DVD9 with very high quality ("HDDVD like quality"):
+ Video: H264 1080p at 6-8 Mbps
+ Audio: Multiple DD 5.1 at 448 Kbps or DD+ 7.1 at 640 Kbps
+ avdanced HDDVD menu, chapters, subtitles

I cannot extract image files to my hard drive :confused:
file corrupt ? or it's me (downloaded twice)

Edited: I was using wrong soft, :)

[crypto]

Hi Sagittaire,

Thanks for the sample. It plays fine on the Xbox 360 Addon and on PDVD 6.5.

This is really cool. You brought us big step forward in HD-DVD authoring. Are the encoding parameters those you have posted earlier?

[Sagittaire]

Hi Sagittaire,

Thanks for the sample. It plays fine on the Xbox 360 Addon and on PDVD 6.5.

This is really cool. You brought us big step forward in HD-DVD authoring. Are the encoding parameters those you have posted earlier?

MPEG4 AVC HP@L4.1:
- for the profil: CABAC, 8*8dct, inloop, wpred, Pref
- for the level: Max GOP at 0.6006 sec (15 for PAL), max adaptative bframe at 2, max reference frame at 4 for P and 0 for B, max motion vector lenght at 512 pixels, max bitrate at 20.0 Mbps, cpb at 14745 Kbits

Highest possible quality mode for Elecard (done same metric result than x264 at max quality). I think that quality is really good for only 6 Mbps (IMO really better than HDTV quality) and this movie trailer is really difficult source.

[crypto]

I can confirm, the PQ is exceptional. And this is why it is such a breakthrough. Until now all HD-DVD 9 disks (homebrew) I saw, used mpeg-2 compression with much less quality.

[Susana]

@Sagittaire
How did you create the iso? Thanks

[McCrash]

Encoding with H264 (Elecard beta) and quality is really high (more than 47 dB for OPSNR)
Audio is simple DD at 448 Kbps.
Mux by Scenarist (but not my work for muxing part ... I don't have Scenarist).


I am sorry, can you elaborate your encoding process ? What do you mean by Elecard beta ? thx

[Malow]

anyone tried those settings? Malow?

scenaruist says:
Error : AVC profile or level or their combination are wrong.

:mad:

[CruNcher]

The only Problem i see is that those (official) HD-DVD Players don't seem to be able to Play 720p @ 25/30 fps but only @ 50/60 fps most of my own HDV cam stuff i did in 720p 25 fps automaticly becomes non playable then even if HD-DVD complaint from the VBV structure this is bad and i hope im wrong. Someone please tell me 720p @ 25/30 fps is working PLEASE and everyone a Happy new Year.

[dvdboy]

As far as I'm aware all Hardware (Toshiba) players currently only accept NTSC framerates. There will be an update for the european players some point in the new year, but no promise of an update for the US players.

HTH

[lazyn00b]

scenaruist says:
Error : AVC profile or level or their combination are wrong.

:mad:

Malow, I get this same error with anything encoded by Elecard except 720p59.940.

UPDATE: OK, so I switched to MainConcept 2.1 and am getting much better results - encodings of 480p and 1080p film sources with 3:2 pulldown applied by the encoder for a target frame rate of 29.97 are now accepted by Scenarist. I encoded to 6000 kbps (max 24000 kbps), High profile at Level 4.1, max GOP 12, 4 reference frames, 2 B-frames, and NO B-slices as references. Strangely, Mainconcept sets the VBV buffer size (bytes!) to 11,718,656; that can't be right, can it - it must really be using bits, not bytes?

[Malow]

Mainconcept sets the VBV buffer size (bytes!) to 11,718,656; that can't be right, can it - it must really be using bits, not bytes?

i think the encoder has some problems or only gui problems. someday i was getting weird values on VBV, even if i put the recomended value indicated in the encoder, it still accuse "warning".

im using the default of it for tests... pc test... dont have standalone player...

[bond]

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=928347#post928347

[cakuhnen]

These are my tests in HD Profile AVC in Mainconcept with Scenarist 4.1 Standard Content

NTSC

Frame Size: 720x480
Aspect Ratio: 16:9 or 4:3
Bitrate: 2000 max 15000 Mbps
GOP: 12 or 36
Frame Rate: 29.97 or 23.976, 24 pulldown 3:2
Audio: Dolby Digital Plus 5.1
Profile Level: 3.0 to 4.1 only
(100% compatible with Scenarist)

I'm making more test i will post the HD resolution later :)

[Golgot13]

The HD DVD don't support a bitrate less than 2.5Mbps.
You use 352x240, 352x288, 352x480, 352x576, 704x480, 704x576 and
1280x720 for frame size(may be more but I 'm sure).



Golgot13

[vsv]

These are my tests in HD Profile AVC in Mainconcept with Scenarist 4.1 Standard Content

NTSC

Frame Size: 720x480
Aspect Ratio: 16:9 or 4:3
Bitrate: 2000 max 15000 Mbps
GOP: 12 or 36
Frame Rate: 29.97 or 23.976, 24 pulldown 3:2
Audio: Dolby Digital Plus 5.1
Profile Level: 3.0 to 4.1 only
(100% compatible with Scenarist)

I'm making more test i will post the HD resolution later :)

What encoder for Dolby Digital Plus 5.1 ?

[Golgot13]

What encoder for Dolby Digital Plus 5.1 ?

Only "Dolby" company encoder, only in Mac OS :(..........

There is not now another encoder than Dolby Media Producer for DD+.
It can make all dolby file: Dobly Digital, Dolby Digital Plus, Dolby TrueHD
and MLP. It support DVD, HD DVD and BluRay export (not same specifications).




Golgot13

[RBF]

Elecard Converter Studio HD-DVD PAL profile (http://rbf.nm.ru/RBF-HD) for Scenarist 4.

[chadamir]

The HD DVD don't support a bitrate less than 2.5Mbps.
You use 352x240, 352x288, 352x480, 352x576, 704x480, 704x576 and
1280x720 for frame size(may be more but I 'm sure).



Golgot13


Really? a 352x240 avc needs to be 2500? Scenarist definitely accepted lower bitrates for 720x480 stuff.

[vsv]

Elecard Converter Studio HD-DVD PAL profile (http://rbf.nm.ru/RBF-HD) for Scenarist 4.

Why Level -auto instead of 4.1 ?
In advanced settings you have used AVC preset Blue-Ray
instead of HD-DVD and motion estimation search range -255 when for HD-DVD possible is max 511.

[Golgot13]

Really? a 352x240 avc needs to be 2500?

Yes, it is a specification....
May be VC1 need 2500 for 352x240 ;) ?
A movie of 2 hours need a HD DVD of 30Go...

When the first HD DVD in H264 on DVD disc in Europe ?




Golgot13

[Sagittaire]

Yes, it is a specification....
May be VC1 need 2500 for 352x240 ;) ?
A movie of 2 hours need a HD DVD of 30Go...

When the first HD DVD in H264 on DVD disc in Europe ?

Golgot13

No I think that it's the max bitrate specification (aka vbv).

[RBF]

vsv
Why Level-auto instead of 4.1?
Encoder will automatically establish a level 4.1 in this profile, outgoing from delay, hss and cpb.

In advanced settings you have used AVC preset Blue-Ray
instead of HD-DVD
Do not worry about it. It only a title

and motion estimation search range-255 when for HD-DVD possible is max 511.
You can put manually 511.

[Chefkoch_ico]

@RBF:
Thx. Its working great.

Too bad, that I can´t use my Recordings from Premiere HD (German High def PayTV) directly. They are H264 with AC3.

Scenarist takes no 1088i resolution (my source files). But 1080i is OK.

I hope in future there will be a not so restrictive tool for HD-DVD like DVDlab is for DVDs. Cause I like the way: Record -> Demux/Cut -> Author -> Burn. All without reencoding like with normal DVB-S Streams.

Greetings

[vsv]

Need header stream patcher for h264 similar to DVDpatcher or HDPatch.
You can try manipulate with metadata use hex editor.

[Trahald]

welp... here is where i am.. the program parses a raw mpeg4 avc now (like what mpeg4ip does except without failing at the first picture) it will also recreate the same avc exactly (using the parsed info , not straight bit copying). although this is assuming it only has the data that mpeg4ip parses ( aud sps pps sei(00,01) ) and also the slice header info.. although i dont decode the picture itself (of course).. that is blind copied. the h.264.es.mpv is recreated perfectly with the parsed info. i then used a x264 avc i made and used the tool to put in a proper AUD and dummy HRD and sei values and write them in aud-sps-pps-sei-slice order. (i encoded my avc with the wrong level so i forced it from 51 to 41 ). the file is excepted now although it complains about gop being too big. so i need to make and find some example streams with proper gop structure but improper headers and see if my fixed version plays back ok once compiled
this is still early on and ultimately it may be better just to encode it right in the first place as (with the HRD-x264 version), as i stated.. the gop length has to be small ( .6 secs ). also forcing the level value may have unwanted concequences if it wasnt set correctly during the original decode. (hopefully it doesnt)

anyways.. will keep posted.

*ps*
the reason mpeg4ip and my tool only do the aud sps pps sei and slice is thats all thats in most streams. if i can find out info about the other types i may add it in but for now it doesnt seem needed. (the reference stream is accepted by the reference compiler). btw i dont write the sei 05 (it is freeform text, x264 uses it basically to write text of your command line )to the output stream as it doesnt seem needed. it is not in the reference stream

[shon3i]

I cannot extract image files to my hard drive :confused:
file corrupt ? or it's me (downloaded twice)

Edited: I was using wrong soft, :)
What you use, because i wont have luck, i tryed with WinRAR, WinISO, IsoBuster, Nero, Nero ImageDrive, Deamon Tools, and only IsoBuster and WinIso shows files, but say that can't be extracted?, i downloaded three times, first to without download manager, third time with GetRight

[Susana]

I used IsoBuster Pro 2.0

[shon3i]

I used IsoBuster Pro 2.0
I just tryed with isobuster 2 pro, and when i try to extract evo file, progress bar is just disappeared, and nothing happend. Any idea?

[Susana]

I don't know. Simple left button click and Extract.

[oberon]

Thanks for all the great info. I have a quick question though.
When I burn a quick sample to dvd I will play in powerdvd no problem but I will lock up the xbox360. But If I burn the departed iso It will play fine on the 360. Any sugestions

[Susana]

How to burn hddvd in a standard dvd:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=705146

[shon3i]

I don't know. Simple left button click and Extract.
I don't know what is happend here, but this iso is damaged, i downloaded it again from another computer, and i can't open it, with any such iso tools. Isobuster only show contents, but unable to extract without any error, just progress bar show's, and automaticly disappear, without any progress. I tryed with many version form 1.6 to 2.0

Is there some alternative?

[oberon]

Burned both using that guide. But for some reason It craps out with my iso vs the departed iso. Maybe there is something I am missing when I set the options to build the hddvd iso

[Chefkoch_ico]

Hi!

I have done a test encoding of my ******** HD recording with x264. Btw. converting the Original ts (h264) to HD-DVD compatible h264 and syncing with the DVD was a real pain in the ass.

Synced it with the DVD so I was getting the Dolby Track from the DVD.

Finally putted it all together in Scenarist and created an ISO.

Here it is (50MB, the first 50seconds in 1080, 25fps)
*** Removed the Link, if U wanna Test, PM me ***

Since its only the 20thCF and Lucas Intro i hope its not a problem this posting here.

Can somebody with PowerDVD or an Toshiba A2/E1 test this? Especially because its being said, that the A2/E1 don´t support 25fps ATM.

Greetings

[oberon]

@Chefkoch_ico I tested your iso in the xbox360 and powerdvd and it worked fine. Can you tell me exactly how you built the iso in Scenarist since my iso locks up my 360?

[Chefkoch_ico]

@Chefkoch_ico I tested your iso in the xbox360 and powerdvd and it worked fine. Can you tell me exactly how you built the iso in Scenarist since my iso locks up my 360?

Hi.

Thx for testing. Good to hear.

Here is the step by step:
- Create a project with the settings u need
- Go to data editor and Drag and Drop the AV files
- Go to Track Editor and Drag and Drop the Video from the Data Tab under Tracks, so a new track is created
- Click on the new Track
- On the Toolbar then click "add Audio", choose then the Lang for the Audio and Drag and Drop the Audio there
- Go to Scenario Editor
- There should be a VTS_1 and under it a Title_1 already
- Drag and Drop the before created Track to Title_1 so it appears afterwards under it
- under "File->Build" select "Mux Project", "Premaster Project", "Include Standard VTS" and Premaster to "Disc-Image"
- Then click "Start". In one of the Folders is afterwards the ISO File

I did my h264 file with x264, the one which is compatible with HD-DVD (look in the MPG4 AVC Subforum). AC3 is as I said from DVD.

Plz someone with a Toshiba E2, test it. If it works, I´ll buy one. Its a killer feature for me.

Greetings

[oberon]

I did just like what Chefkoch_ico said but still when I build the iso and burn then play the 360 just freezes

[Chefkoch_ico]

Hi!

Then maybe its your assets problem. If you want, I can upload my 50secs AV Test Files (.264 and .ac3 files) and you can try it with them.

Greetings

[digitalvideo]

At this time hd-dvd non working with 25/50 fps !!! may be is it your problem.

[Chefkoch_ico]

Hi!

No its not his problem, since my ISO is created with 25fps video.

It works in PowerDVD and xBox360.

The Toshiba E2 is in question. There were already 2 firmware updates for it. So maybe it already works. But we don´t know until somebody is testing it.

Greetings

[Chefkoch_ico]

Hi!

Interesting, a user over on avsforums tested on a Toshiba E1 and the disc didn´t even load.
-------
This disc is not DVD format.
Cannot play the disc.
-------
He burned MPEG2 HD-DVDs with Ulead Movie factory before. So I think he knows, what he is doing. Burned it was with ImgBurn 2.1.

Also he stated, that with PowerDVD-HD 6.5 the image looks distorted. Oberon, which Version of PowerDVD did U test?

Maybe another explanation could be, that u should use the xBox compatibility flag on burning in Nero.

Or a 29,7 fps source could do the trick.

Greetings

[oberon]

I am using powerdvd 7.1. I used the same guide for burning a couple of posts up. But even if i just burn the iso in clone dvd your iso will play just fine.

Chefkoch_ico I was starting to think the same thing. If you could please post a sample of your source.

[DeathMonk]

K...

I am using mainconcept to encode some 720p [59.94] material that I shot using a panasonic varicam.

I exported a quicktime using the AJA Kona 10-bit uncompressed codec. This file makes mainconcept crash, so, I converted it to a super-high bitrate h.264 which mainconcept accepted.

After encoding this 3.5 minute clip using a couple different settings.. They import into scenarist 4.1 just fine, but when I multiplex and play the EVO's in powerDVD 6.5, they play choppy--like skipping around weird.

I went back and played the AVC file that mainconcept encoded in windows media player and that doesnt look completely right either.. not skipping around like the EVO but slower and seems like its missing frames.

Any ideas?

[chadamir]

K...

I am using mainconcept to encode some 720p [59.94] material that I shot using a panasonic varicam.

I exported a quicktime using the AJA Kona 10-bit uncompressed codec. This file makes mainconcept crash, so, I converted it to a super-high bitrate h.264 which mainconcept accepted.

After encoding this 3.5 minute clip using a couple different settings.. They import into scenarist 4.1 just fine, but when I multiplex and play the EVO's in powerDVD 6.5, they play choppy--like skipping around weird.

I went back and played the AVC file that mainconcept encoded in windows media player and that doesnt look completely right either.. not skipping around like the EVO but slower and seems like its missing frames.

Any ideas?

Was it filmed at that framerate? Did you try it in a hardware player?

[DeathMonk]

Recorded at that framerate...


It's weird.. Its doing the same thing as reauthored retail HD-DVD stuff.

[chadamir]

Recorded at that framerate...


It's weird.. Its doing the same thing as reauthored retail HD-DVD stuff.

I asked two questions and you answered one. My guess is that it's something with the player. Plus I ASSUME you are reauthoring those yourself in which case it suggests YOU are doing something wrong.

[Chefkoch_ico]

Hi!

Interresting:
I have 2 h264 Files.

The first created with x264, the second one with Elecard Converter Studio beta.

Both files created from the same AVS with same resolution and Bitrate. Both load fine in Scenarist.

But when I play the files in PowerDVD HD 7.2, the x264 file plays very choppy and CPU-usage is 100%. The Elecard one plays fine with 70% CPU usage.

Far more interesting:
When I author the x264 file in Scenarist and afterwards play the authored content, its not choppy anymore and its behaving like the Elecard encoded file concerning CPU usage.

Greetings

[DeathMonk]

I asked two questions and you answered one. My guess is that it's something with the player. Plus I ASSUME you are reauthoring those yourself in which case it suggests YOU are doing something wrong.

well it's pretty damn obvious im doing something wrong..


I am using powerdvd 6.5.

[Sagittaire]

New trailer
http://dl-1.free.fr/52616e646f6d49569028a6c23700d1c2e82019811cfd32301740d43b92b7dfed/300_Trailer.iso

"300" Movie Trailer
Video H264 23.976 fps with pulldown 3:2 flag at 7 Mbps
Audio AC3 5.1 at 448 Kbps
Source with high grain level

Work on your Toshiba SAP's ... ???

[Nasgul]

Hi Sagittaire,

this is brilliant! Works like a charm in the Toshiba-A1, perfect and smooth playback!

How did you do it? Can you please post your cmdline and script used? What format was the input you used?

Regards,
Nas

[dssgorila]

New trailer
http://dl-1.free.fr/52616e646f6d49569028a6c23700d1c2e82019811cfd32301740d43b92b7dfed/300_Trailer.iso

"300" Movie Trailer
Video H264 23.976 fps with pulldown 3:2 flag at 7 Mbps
Audio AC3 5.1 at 448 Kbps
Source with high grain level

Work on your Toshiba SAP's ... ???

how about a tutorial/how to :)

also how do i burn this?

[chadamir]

He's using mainconcept which is a non-free encoder.

[Nasgul]

Hi,

I´ve downloaded the Mainconcept demo but still only get choppy results or bad clip length with 24fps vc-1 sources via avs...

Sagittaire, could you please post the settings you used with Mainconcept to feed it with a 23.976fps source and get a perfect authored HDDVD?

Would be greatly appreciated...


Has someone had any positive results with re-encoding 24fps vc-1 sources?

Nas

[lazyn00b]

Hi,

I´ve downloaded the Mainconcept demo but still only get choppy results or bad clip length with 24fps vc-1 sources via avs...

Sagittaire, could you please post the settings you used with Mainconcept to feed it with a 23.976fps source and get a perfect authored HDDVD?

Would be greatly appreciated...


Has someone had any positive results with re-encoding 24fps vc-1 sources?

Nas

Hello Nasgul, I've experienced exactly the same problem encoding film sources with Mainconcept 2.1 (demo version). Choppy playback (using PowerDVD Ultra) and clip length is wrong (too long).

Sagittaire, please enlighten us! :o

[Sagittaire]

Hi,

Sagittaire, could you please post the settings you used with Mainconcept to feed it with a 23.976fps source and get a perfect authored HDDVD?

Nas

Here little sample for test vbv limit with your Toshiba SAP's (I don't know the buffer limit and it's important for quality)
http://dl-3.free.fr/52616e646f6d49568469d876448eefd708831611e52dd2b8ca9afac463586b76/fantastic4silversurfer.rar

You can find the setting for HDDVD profil in the rar files with the sample.

Make feedback for the samples ... thx

[Nasgul]

Hi,

Here little sample for test vbv limit with your Toshiba SAP's (I don't know the buffer limit and it's important for quality)

Haven´t had much time today but I just did a quick burn of the three 1080p samples and put them in the Toshiba...
The first two (1100+1715) play fine. The third (3450) had a strange discoloration in the tunnel scene while playing for the first time, but I couldn´t reproduce it playing it again. It may have to do with the rewritable I used (was another brand), I have to check that again tomorrow/today. Apart from that the 3450 also played fine.

They all look fantastic btw!


You can find the setting for HDDVD profil in the rar files with the sample.


Thanks! Will try that tomorrow...
Scenarist doesn´t complain about the 23.97fps elementaries???
I´ve tried that before, but only got "Invalid framerate".
Also, when trying to set the pulldown 3:2 on 23.97fps source, my Mainconcept demo gives me an error saying the target fps has to be 29.97, 30, 59.94 or 60. The screens look different, too, I guess I have a different version...

Nas

[Nasgul]

Hi,

Sagittaire, I´ve just tried your 480p sample - works as well in the Toshiba (the picture is quite soft, though).

I also tried your HDDVD settings with an older Mainconcept demo I found (2.0.15) and it almost works now. At least it accepts the pulldown flags with the 23.976fps target and loads afterwards.

The playback in the Toshiba is ALMOST smooth, but I still have slight stuttering and the audio (tried a dd+ track) shuts down after about 4-5 seconds. Any ideas?


Sagittaire, could you do me a very big favour and try your script/settings/scenarist combination with a 24fps VC-1 source? Here´s a sample video (http://rapidshare.com/files/13083057/test1.vc1) and audio (http://rapidshare.com/files/13210982/test1.ddp). That would be great!

Nas

[Nasgul]

Another update...
I´ve just encoded a small 23.976fps progressive mpeg2 source with Sagittaires Settings and Mainconcept 2.0, which seems to work! Will try a bigger sample right now, unfortunately the demo is limited.

So the problem is most likely with the vc-1 source and/or avs-script.

[digitalvideo]

Hello Nasgul,

What tools are you using to encode your audio in dolby digital plus ?

Thx for the help

[Nasgul]

Hi,

What tools are you using to encode your audio in dolby digital plus ?

Actually, I didn´t encode it - it´s from a demuxed .EVO-file from an HDDVD...

Nas

[srfscenar]

hi all!
Could someone tell me how to extract the ISO files?
Thanx!

[box86rowh]

MPEG4 AVC HP@L4.1:
- for the profil: CABAC, 8*8dct, inloop, wpred, Pref
- for the level: Max GOP at 0.6006 sec (15 for PAL), max adaptative bframe at 2, max reference frame at 4 for P and 0 for B, max motion vector lenght at 512 pixels, max bitrate at 20.0 Mbps, cpb at 14745 Kbits

Highest possible quality mode for Elecard (done same metric result than x264 at max quality). I think that quality is really good for only 6 Mbps (IMO really better than HDTV quality) and this movie trailer is really difficult source.

anyway you can post screenshots of your config pages in elecard?
I am trying to interpret these soecs and I can quite figure it out!
Jason

[Clown shoes]

I have been doing some tests with varied results. I have been testing 1080p QuickTime files, encoded with Mainconcept's H264 encoder and then muxed with Scenarist 4.1 SCA. Initially I tried using Sagittaire's Mainconcept settings in the demo of version 2.1, but 2.1 will not allow a 3.2 pulldown to be applied to a 23.976 source! On closer inspection of Sagittaires's settings and screen shots, it appears he is using version 2.0 as the layout matches and it is possible to apply the pulldown. In 2.1 I just select 29.97 as the output frame rate and it produces a stream that plays smoothly and has the same running time (is it applying pulldown automatically?) Both 2.0 and 2.1 produce streams that Scenarist is happy to accept although it refuses to mux streams with constant bitrates higher than about 10,000 kbps! throwing the error:

Error Video or Audio Buffer underflow: (Dts: 1634865, SCR 1634883)
Error dvd_mux : DoMux Multiplexing Error
Error Terminated Multiplexing (GrindHouse-300-t_t.evo).
Error Total bitrate is too HIGH. Please reduce the stream bitrate or the number of stream.
Error Multiplex is failed.
Error Multiplexer failed "300-t"

One trailer for the Grindhouse will not accept anything above about 6,000 kbps. Is this being caused by my VBV? It has me a little confused.

I need to invest in a good h264 encoder and seeing as the Mainconcept one is several thousand pounds cheaper than the Elecard one, I would obviously prefer to take that route. I just want to make sure that it is fully compatable at this stage.


Oh I almost forgot. jumping between VTSs appears to freeze a DVD5 test disc on an Xbox360 HD drive.

[Trahald]

i used 2.1 and i set turn pulldown on in hte advance settings->misc->general->film mode framerate conv 3:2. this will apply pulldown to the timecode sei. .the tool i made will add 3:2 to an existing file but slow as molasses. doing some speedups first and i'll make it available

[Sergey A. Sablin]

i used 2.1 and i set turn pulldown on in hte advance settings->misc->general->film mode framerate conv 3:2. this will apply pulldown to the timecode sei. .the tool i made will add 3:2 to an existing file but slow as molasses. doing some speedups first and i'll make it available

Are you going to change existing timing in avc stream? if so then buffer model will be broken and this will lead to non-compliant avc stream.

[Clown shoes]

@ Trahald

The problem is 2.1 throws an error in the right hand pane and if I try to apply pulldown to a 23.976 or 24 source. Only 2.0 seems to allow it for me.

@ Sergey

Are you saying that my muxing error is caused by changing the framerate without using pulldown. Thus corrupting the buffer? Could pulldown problem be caused by the source?

[Sergey A. Sablin]

@ Trahald

The problem is 2.1 throws an error in the right hand pane and if I try to apply pulldown to a 23.976 or 24 source. Only 2.0 seems to allow it for me.

@ Sergey

Are you saying that my muxing error is caused by changing the framerate without using pulldown. Thus corrupting the buffer? Could pulldown problem be caused by the source?

nope, I said that changing SEI messages in existent AVC stream will broke buffer (as timing has been changed after encoding). Changing frame rate for source before encoding has no effect on buffer. This will only change output frame rate.

[Clown shoes]

Any idea what the muxing problem might be caused by? I don't know what I should be setting the VBV to. All I know is that it changes the DTS and SCR figures within the Scenarist error: Error Video or Audio Buffer underflow: (Dts: 1634865, SCR 1634883) depending on how high I set it.

I am also still getting the error: C045:H.264 Validation Error: Invalid target frame_rate/pulldown combination. Must be 29.97, 30, 59.94, or 60. every time I try to set pulldown on a 23.976 source

Very Confused! :confused:

My company is ready to dip it's toe into the HD arena. We can produce compliant MPEG2 files with procoder, but we would like to move over to the more efficient H264. Untill we can see it working properly, that just isn't going to happen :(

[Sergey A. Sablin]

Any idea what the muxing problem might be caused by? I don't know what I should be setting the VBV to. All I know is that it changes the DTS and SCR figures within the Scenarist error: Error Video or Audio Buffer underflow: (Dts: 1634865, SCR 1634883) depending on how high I set it.

I am also still getting the error: C045:H.264 Validation Error: Invalid target frame_rate/pulldown combination. Must be 29.97, 30, 59.94, or 60. every time I try to set pulldown on a 23.976 source

Very Confused! :confused:

My company is ready to dip it's toe into the HD arena. We can produce compliant MPEG2 files with procoder, but we would like to move over to the more efficient H264. Untill we can see it working properly, that just isn't going to happen :(

if this is commercial interest I don't think that this is a good place to discuss your problems. If you are intersted in our program and have a problems you can contact our techsupport for the answers.

[Sagittaire]

i used 2.1 and i set turn pulldown on in hte advance settings->misc->general->film mode framerate conv 3:2. this will apply pulldown to the timecode sei. .the tool i made will add 3:2 to an existing file but slow as molasses. doing some speedups first and i'll make it available

If you make that you must rewrite HRD parameters in the stream. IMO the best way is pehaps to make complete flags rewrite tools:

-> input is basic H264 raw stream
- tool write Sequence End Code flag
- tool write SEI flag
- tool write HRD flag
- tool write pulldown flag
etc etc etc
-> output is compliant HDDVD/BD stream

[Sergey A. Sablin]

If you make that you must rewrite HRD parameters in the stream. IMO the best way is pehaps to make complete flags rewrite tools:

-> input is basic H264 raw stream
- tool write Sequence End Code flag
- tool write SEI flag
- tool write HRD flag
- tool write pulldown flag
etc etc etc
-> output is compliant HDDVD/BD stream

wrong. encoder was used given buffer model with given timing - it will be a luck to change these parameters and still keep buffer model correct. No one could give a guarantee for this without buffer analyzing and adjusting HRD parameters for new timing.

[Clown shoes]

The reason I was discussing it here Sergey, is the fact that I know members here have had success in producing HDDVD compliant files. I don't consider it likely to be a technical problem with the software, more likely a user problem caused by myself. Therefore I feel I will probably troubleshoot this problem quicker If I mention it on Doom 9.

[Sergey A. Sablin]

The reason I was discussing it here Sergey, is the fact that I know members here have had success in producing HDDVD compliant files. I don't consider it likely to be a technical problem with the software, more likely a user problem caused by myself. Therefore I feel I will probably troubleshoot this problem quicker If I mention it on Doom 9.

ok. I've just suggested.

[Clown shoes]

Sorry Sergey, I didn't mean to be rude. I am just used to solving my video related problems on my favourite video related forum :)

I have just gone to the mainconcept website and sent an email to technical support. Hopefully between the two places I will get an answer to my problems. At least before my boss tears me a new one!

@Sagittaire Can you confirm which version of the encoder you have been using? Also as i see you too have been using QT trailers, have you managed any at high constant bitrates, Specifically in the 20,000 kbps range?

Thanks again guys.

[Clown shoes]

Ok, update:

I have tested the same source material with some variable encodes. I can push the max bitrate all the way to 29 mbps without problems, but the average cannot pass the same limits I was restricted to in the constant bitrate encodes. The curious thing is, the limitation varies between sources. It seems to be between 6000 and 10000 kbps (at least on everything I have checked)

I am going to test out the Elecard demo today and see if the same restrictions apply.

Can anyone else confirm this bitrate limitation issue?

[Sagittaire]

Ok, update:

I have tested the same source material with some variable encodes. I can push the max bitrate all the way to 29 mbps without problems, but the average cannot pass the same limits I was restricted to in the constant bitrate encodes. The curious thing is, the limitation varies between sources. It seems to be between 6000 and 10000 kbps (at least on everything I have checked)

I am going to test out the Elecard demo today and see if the same restrictions apply.

Can anyone else confirm this bitrate limitation issue?

Try with differents values for the buffer ...
1 150 000 bytes
1 843 000 bytes
3 750 000 bytes

[Clown shoes]

We have success with Mainconcept (Thanks to Sagittaire)

150,000 bytes is too low and causes the encoder to crash, but 750,000 and 843,000 both work a charm. Even going up to 29mbps.

I am well chuffed. :)


Sagittaire, can you tell me how you worked out the correct VBV values? The default is set to 11,718656 which is so drastically different it's not funny. As I will be purchasing this encoder for commerial purposes, I want to make sure I don't get caught out like this again.

[Sagittaire]

Sagittaire, can you tell me how you worked out the correct VBV values? The default is set to 11,718656 which is so drastically different it's not funny. As I will be purchasing this encoder for commerial purposes, I want to make sure I don't get caught out like this again.

1 150 000 bytes is the official value for HDDVD with MPEG2 MP@HL
1 843 000 bytes is the official value for HDDVD with VC1 AP@L3
3 750 000 bytes is the official value for HDDVD with H264 HP@4.1

I don't know the particular value for sonic authoring but 1150000 must work in all case. Higher buffer values imply potentially higher values for local peak bitrate and more constant quality in complexe part. It's particulary true if your average bitrate is close to your max bitrate.

If average bitrate = max bitrate and if buffer = 0 then Rate Control will be strict CBR
If average bitrate = max bitrate and if buffer = infinite then Rate Control will be strict VBR

[Clown shoes]

Well that's interesting. Scenarist seems to be extremely fussy with what I give it.

At a constant bitrate of 29mbps (The highest limit available to AVC within the HD-DVD spec)

A Mainconcept buffer of;

1,000.000 bytes causes Scenarist to throw a muxing error

750,000 is perfectly ok though

300,000 or lower causes the encoder to crash.

Therefore Mainconcept's default buffer of 11,718.656 really is well off the mark.

Thanks for your help Sagittaire. The only thing still puzzling me is the issue of Pulldown though. It's clearly working for you in version 2.0. Has anyone got it working in version 2.1 or is it broken. I still get the error: C045:H.264 Validation Error: Invalid target frame_rate/pulldown combination. Must be 29.97, 30, 59.94, or 60. every time I try to set pulldown on a 23.976 source

[Sagittaire]

Make average bitrate encoding really close to the max bitrate is a hell for the rate control:
- really difficult to respect vbv -> can produce no compliant files
- easy to sature the buffer -> can produce bad Iframe quality

IMO it's always better in multipass mode to use average bitrate < 2/3 * max bitrate

[lazyn00b]

The only thing still puzzling me is the issue of Pulldown though. It's clearly working for you in version 2.0. Has anyone got it working in version 2.1 or is it broken. I still get the error: C045:H.264 Validation Error: Invalid target frame_rate/pulldown combination. Must be 29.97, 30, 59.94, or 60. every time I try to set pulldown on a 23.976 source

I still always have exactly the same problem with 2.1.

Sergey, since you work for MainConcept, surely you can shed some light on this, can't you? Are we doing something wrong, or is there a bug in the program?

[Sergey A. Sablin]

I still always have exactly the same problem with 2.1.

Sergey, since you work for MainConcept, surely you can shed some light on this, can't you? Are we doing something wrong, or is there a bug in the program?

unfortunately it is impossible right now to add pulldown through this application.
The only way is like this: source shall signal 29.97 fps and you then may specify 3:2 pulldown. I think one could try to signal 29.97 frame rate for 23.976 source via avi synth.

[Clown shoes]

What a relief. Confirmation that I'm not going mad :)

I've tried the 2.0 demo and that seems to work ok. The thing is, I think the pulldown is working automatically in 2.1 if you just enter an output framerate of 29.97, the resulting file is the correct length and seems to play back smoothly on my XBOX360 HD-DVD drive. My hesitation is the fact I'm not so use to working with pulldown due to the fact I come from PAL land.

Can you shed some light on this for us Sergey? I did send an email to Mainconcept technical support as you requested on tuesday, however there has been no response!

EDIT; Sorry Sergey, you were posting at the same time as me.

Are we to assume 2.1 is broken then?? Pulldown worked fine in 2.0.

[Sergey A. Sablin]

What a relief. Confirmation that I'm not going mad :)

I've tried the 2.0 demo and that seems to work ok. The thing is, I think the pulldown is working automatically in 2.1 if you just enter an output framerate of 29.97, the resulting file is the correct length and seems to play back smoothly on my XBOX360 HD-DVD drive. My hesitation is the fact I'm not so use to working with pulldown due to the fact I come from PAL land.

Can you shed some light on this for us Sergey? I did send an email to Mainconcept technical support as you requested on tuesday, however there has been no response!

EDIT; Sorry Sergey, you were posting at the same time as me.

Are we to assume 2.1 is broken then?? Pulldown worked fine in 2.0.

seems like it was a luck that 2.0 worked with pulldown fine. cause there was no such functionality. we will check this and probably update application soon (this depends on current priorities as usual, so be patient please).

[Clown shoes]

Ok Sergey, well if I understand you correctly, a simple script like this;

QTInput("G:\HDTests\300-tlr2_h1080p.mov")
changefps(29.97)

followed by 3:2 pulldown should suffice.

I will test now and post the results when I get a chance (probably not untill this evening)

[Sergey A. Sablin]

Ok Sergey, well if I understand you correctly, a simple script like this;

QTInput("G:\HDTests\300-tlr2_h1080p.mov")
changefps(29.97)

followed by 3:2 pulldown should suffice.

I will test now and post the results when I get a chance (probably not untill this evening)

just assumefps(29.97), as source has to just indicate 29.97, but do not change anything inside.

[Clown shoes]

Are you sure?? The way I understood it, assumefps only speeds up the footage. Apply pulldown will then set a flag to remove certain frames on playback. Would that not really mess with the output? I envision something that is then too fast and stuttering. However if we use changefps it will duplicate certain frames. Applying the pulldown flags will tell the playback unit to remove the dupes.

Or have I got that all the wrong way round? :D

[Sergey A. Sablin]

Are you sure?? The way I understood it, assumefps only speeds up the footage. Apply pulldown will then set a flag to remove certain frames on playback. Would that not really mess with the output? I envision something that is then too fast and stuttering. However if we use changefps it will duplicate certain frames. Applying the pulldown flags will tell the playback unit to remove the dupes.

Or have I got that all the wrong way round? :D

assumefps just indicates specified frame rate - that is what is needed for workaround atm (works fine here).
pulldown flags indicate how to show frames - either as two fields or as three fields.
if you want to see your encodings on progressive display you dont need these flags - just encode as 23.976 and you'll see progressive playback on your PC display. If you are targeting TV or other interlaced device, then using pulldown flags you're telling to decoder to duplicate some fields to see kinda interlaced 29.97.

seems you have to read a bit about 3:2 pulldown.

[Clown shoes]

Ha ha, yes like I said I had it all confused :D

I am used to working with nice easy PAL framerates, but seeing as many HDDVD players are still only able to playback at NTSC framerates, I foresee having to work with it for a while. I do understand the principle of pulldown, but I have clearly got myself confused using a combination of filters and flags in this situation.

Thanks for setting me straight Sergey.

I just have one last question if you can bear it. I just want to make sure I have got all of this straight.

My source footage is 23.976fps progressive, but Scenarist will only accept 25fps or 29.97fps. Therefore, do I still use your suggested method of assumefps followed by pulldown, even though it is clearly not interlaced material. Or am I still on the wrong track.

Thanks again

[Sergey A. Sablin]

I just have one last question if you can bear it. I just want to make sure I have got all of this straight.

My source footage is 23.976fps progressive, but Scenarist will only accept 25fps or 29.97fps. Therefore, do I still use your suggested method of assumefps followed by pulldown, even though it is clearly not interlaced material. Or am I still on the wrong track.

Thanks again

yes, here you are right - this is the way to make scenarist happy (u2 eventually :))

[lazyn00b]

@Clown shoes:

All you need to do is change fps with avisynth like you said to 29.97 and and use MainConcept to encode at 29.97, but do NOT set the 3:2 pulldown setting. You definitely do NOT want to apply pulldown on top of a video that has already been adjusted to 29.97 fps, because then you will end up with a video that plays back too many frames!

I should warn you, however, that even though Scenarist will accept a 29.97 fps progressive stream, the authored .EVO may not play back smoothly in your HD DVD player. I've had problems with these progressive streams in PowerDVD 7.2 Ultra. Better to try a few test clips for yourself and see what happens.

[Clown shoes]

That's what I'm doing now.

I tried encoding the way Sergey suggested with assumefps and 3:2 pulldown and guess what? Just like I said, it played too fast and stuttered. I should have trusted my initial instincts!

EDIT;

Actually I've just been thinking about it and I don't think that is the best way either. If the source is 23.976fps and I use changefps it will add duplicate frames which will cause stuttering. If I use assumefps that will speed it up. No good also. Finally if I use convertfps it will blend frames. I don't want to make any changes to the frames I have, so none of these solutions are any good.

[dvdboy]

Hang on, my brain is starting to hurt here...

If you've got a feature film with a framerate of 23.976fps how do you encode this through mainconcept so that it is HD DVD compatible and will drop into Scenarist?

- AssumeFPS specifies a framerate, so I can understand how this works if you have a 25fps film source and you want to 'recover' the original framerate, but how does 'speeding up' a film help.

- Sergey, are you saying that the Pulldown 3:2 / 2:3 options under misc within MainConcept 2.x do not work???

My understanding was that you feed MainConcept a 23.976fps source file, tell MainConcept to produce a 29.97fps progressive file which has 3:2 pulldown set under misc, so that the video plays back 29.97, but if the display supports it, then the player can IVTC the footage back to 23.976.

But to do this the footage needs to be interlaced, not progressive. Isn't that how 3:2 pulldown works?

Why don't you then feed a 23.976fps file, and then produce a 29.97 interlaced file with perfect 3:2 cadence generated at encoding time.

Isn't that how CCE works?

[Clown shoes]

OK apologies!! :o

It appears the reason my disc played back strangely had nothing to do with the video, but instead the DD+ audio I was using. I tried the same clip but this time without the audio and it played back fine.

Interestingly though, I also encoded the same clip without changefps and 3:2 pulldown and just selected 29.97fps as the output and that appears to play fine as well. Can anyone confirm this?

[lazyn00b]

Interestingly though, I also encoded the same clip without changefps and 3:2 pulldown and just selected 29.97fps as the output and that appears to play fine as well. Can anyone confirm this?

Try checking the playback time - is it the same as the original video? Does the audio and video stay in sync through out the whole movie?

BTW, which player are you using?

EDIT: Also, I'm pretty sure that if you leave the source as 23.976, and simply allow the MainConcept encoder to change the FPS to 29.97, it is just doing the same thing as using the avisynth changefps function. You can verify this by stepping through the encoded video frame by frame: you will see that the doubled frames differ ever so slightly from each other, meaning that they were doubled prior to encoding.

[Sergey A. Sablin]

Try checking the playback time - is it the same as the original video? Does the audio and video stay in sync through out the whole movie?

BTW, which player are you using?

EDIT: Also, I'm pretty sure that if you leave the source as 23.976, and simply allow the MainConcept encoder to change the FPS to 29.97, it is just doing the same thing as using the avisynth changefps function. You can verify this by stepping through the encoded video frame by frame: you will see that the doubled frames differ ever so slightly from each other, meaning that they were doubled prior to encoding.

you are right, it is exactly as you said. Changing frame rate on property pages will change source clip frame rate.
I'll try to investigate video+audio encoding a bit later...

[Clown shoes]

I can confirm that Sergey's workaround using assumefps and 3:2 pulldown does give a smooth output (don't really understand how though :D )

[dvdboy]

Ok.

So if I have a 25fps film, which therefore has PAL speed-up, I can use an AVISynth script to generate a 23.976fps AVI. I feed this to mainconcept and tell it to produce a 29.97fps encode, and under Misc, I select 3:2 pulldown.

Is this correct??

BTW, my reason for making the AVI rather than feeding Mainconcept the AVS file is that I'm getting strange framelength errors otherwise (16 hour films as opposed to 90 minutes!!)

The Audio I am slowing down via BeLight.

Many Thanks

[Clown shoes]

Almost. It won't work unless you use an avisynth script with assumefps(29.97) in it. Mainconcept will show you the wrong running time, but the pulldown seems to fix it. I don't really understand the logic, but it works. Just out of interest DVDBoy, what's your source material?

[dvdboy]

Hi Clown Shoes,

I'm not sure if I can say here - PAL H264 Broadcasts off the internet...

So my source material has to be flagged as 29.97?

PAL H264 File > AssumeFps (29.97) > MainConcept 29.97 with 3:2

With the audio slowed down to 23.976 via belight.

Would that sound about right?

[Clown shoes]

Hey DVDBoy, I think what you meant to say was H264 broadcasts off of the TV ;)

Yes your script needs to have assumefps(29.97) at the end of it. I know this seems odd, as it means the video will play back too fast, but it seems to be the current fix for a bug in Mainconcept. It will not allow you to apply 3:2 pulldown to most non 29.97fps material. I say most because it does appear to work with some, but I guess it's just trial and error.

But in a nutshell, yes what you are doing looks the same as my method and it seems to be working great. :D

[dvdboy]

Thanks Clown Shoes, I'll report back how I get on.

I'm currently seeing how well Scenarist behaves with video which I encode in chunks but sync to one audio track.

Until MainConcept add a 3rd Pass / Segment based re-encode option.

What do you say Sergey? :D

[Clown shoes]

I'm currently seeing how well Scenarist behaves with video which I encode in chunks but sync to one audio track.




It can be done in Scenarist but it is a bit of a pain. Say if you have three parts, you can use the multi file import option, but you must take care to ensure the first two parts do not have sequence end codes, other wise your video will probably stop mysteriously when it reaches the join. That would be the only way to apply one audio track to a peice of video cut into several chunks (that I know of at least)

Is there a reason you have to encode the chunks seperately? Would it not be easier to join them in AVISynth?

[dvdboy]

I've got the source material as one long piece (90mins give or take). As I said, Mainconcept seems to be playing silly buggers with the duration, although this is probably down to using AVISynth and parsing in an H264 file. Because it is listing the duration wrong, MC seems to crash when it reaches the end of the encode. 'Fine' on a single pass, but useless on a 2 pass.

Because of this I'm currently bouncing the video back out to an AVI to feed MainConcept. Not ideal, but works and produces big files.

So, part of the reason for wanting to feed Scenarist chunks was to get around converting the whole film to an AVi first (I've guess-timated about 400GB). The other reason was so that I could allocate different bitrates to different peices, or re-encode a segment if I didn't like the results.

As it is, it is looking a complete ball-ache to try and sync, so my next plan is to generate the AVI. Just need to archive some old projects off first...

[Clown shoes]

Just out of interest, is it a raw .h264 or is it in a container like .mkv? and what was your avisynth script that was having problems?

[dvdboy]

My process so far has been as follows, and I'm always open to suggestions:

- .ts file run through xport to produce an .mpv (containing the H264 elementary stream) and .mpa (which is actually ac3).
- DirectShowSource (".mpv)
- AssumeFps (23.976)
- CropBottom (8)
- ConvertYUV ()

Opening the AVS file up, both virtualdub and mainconcept report the wrong length. I can play the file's back in PowerDVD 7.1 or MediaPlayerClassic and it's all there, but the duration is totally messed up.

Hence my thinking if I bounce this out to a 'physical' AVI, I'll use more disc space (temporarily), but I don't then get an issue with misreading the running time.

[Sagittaire]

In fact encoding is purely progressive internaly at 23.976 fps. Pulldown add just telecine flag in the stream for the playback because output in NTSC standard must be at 60 Hz.

[Sergey A. Sablin]

So my source material has to be flagged as 29.97?

your source has to be real 23.976 and flagged via avisynth as 29.97 if you want to produce 29.97 fps. Don't change frame rate in MainConcept H.264 encoder - just use 3:2 pulldown in this case.
Or source has to be real 24 and flagged as 30 to produce 30 fps. Again don't change frame rate in MainConcept H.264 encoder - use 3:2 pulldown flag.

[Clown shoes]

Sergey, this method does not appear to be working properly. I imported a raw .vc1 via avisynth (directshowsource) and used assumefps(29.97) I then applied 3:2 pulldown. The original source is 2.02.18.25, Mainconcept displays approx; 1.37.00.00 and the resulting output file has a running time of 2.01.56.12 The file appears to play back smoothly but the 22 second difference is alarming! Any idea what the cause for this might be?

What will happen to my 23.976 output file if I select 29.97 as my desired framerate and apply the 3:2 pulldown flag. Will I get duplicated frames?

[Sergey A. Sablin]

Sergey, this method does not appear to be working properly. I imported a raw .vc1 via avisynth (directshowsource) and used assumefps(29.97) I then applied 3:2 pulldown. The original source is 2.02.18.25, Mainconcept displays approx; 1.37.00.00 and the resulting output file has a running time of 2.01.56.12 The file appears to play back smoothly but the 22 second difference is alarming! Any idea what the cause for this might be?

What will happen to my 23.976 output file if I select 29.97 as my desired framerate and apply the 3:2 pulldown flag. Will I get duplicated frames?

if you'll set target frame rate in H.264 encoder application different from source, then you'll have either duplicated frames (if target > source) or dropped frames (if target < source) without regard to pulldown flag (which doesn't affect video content at all - just playback)

[Clown shoes]

@Sergey

Do you have any idea why my output file might end up 20 seconds shorter than the source file for a 2 hour feature encode, using your workaround with assumefps(29.97)?

The majority of the work I will be doing is going to be 23.976 sources for a local art gallery who are going HD. Therefore I really need to know this is going to work with what I throw at it. Is there any news as to when a version of the encoder will be released with the pulldown bug fixed?

Sorry to direct all this at you Sergey, but I never heard anything back from your tech department after emailing them last wednesday.

[mpucoder]

The original source is 2.02.18.25 if this is in hh.mm.ss.ff format it is an invalid time for 23.976fps
Mainconcept displays approx; 1.37.00.00 that is to be expected, the framerate change will shorten the runtime to 80%, the original was approximately 122 minutes, so 97 minutes is correct.
Do you know if the times are in drop-frame or non-drop format? if 2.01.56.12 is the correct non-drop value that equals 219492 displayed frames, converting to drop-frame would add 218 - not enough to account for the difference, but I question the original run time value.

btw - this is not new to HD, pulldown issues are the same as SD. In SD the most common way to do this is encode at 23.976 then apply pulldown which not only adds the flags but changes the framerate in the headers.

[MarcioAB]

Hello,

Is there any reason why Scenarist does not accept a project for 23.976 or 24 fps ?

(most) HD content should playback on LCD displays that do not suffer with 50 or 60Hz, so any frame rate should be ok.
(most) DVD Mpeg2 movies are 24 fps and playback at 24 fps.

Thank you.

[dvdboy]

Hello,

Is there any reason why Scenarist does not accept a project for 23.976 or 24 fps ?

(most) HD content should playback on LCD displays that do not suffer with 50 or 60Hz, so any frame rate should be ok.
(most) DVD Mpeg2 movies are 24 fps and playback at 24 fps.

Thank you.

Hi MarcioAB,

Neither HD DVD or DVD accept 'pure' 24fps / 23.976fps video - they have to be wrapped into a 29.97fps container using 3:2 pulldown.

Only blu-ray accepts 'pure' 24fps video.

[MarcioAB]

Hi dvdboy,

Ok, but why when I play the majority of my DVDs movies directly on the PC, using Media Player Classic, I see on the statistics panel of MPC a number very close to 24 for the frame-rate ?

Thank you.


EDIT (after some pulldown readings)

TV1: interlaced CRT-based ( 15750 scan-lines capable ) (very old)
TV2: progressive CRT-based ( 31500 scan-lines capable ) (old)
TV3: progressive LCD-based ( 60 Hz )

DVD Player1: interlaced (old)
DVD Player2: progressive


The (old) DVD when filled with film content has always (or most of the time) 24 fps.

There is only a "pulldown" flag in the DVD content to instruct old interlaced DVD players to adapt the video to be able to play that 24 fps content in old interlaced CRT-based displays.

Progressive DVD players (as well as PC players) when connected on progressive displays (CRT or LCD) just ignore the "pulldown" flag, and play at 24 fps.

I understand things like NTSC or PAL were invented for that very old interlaced technology.

Today in the progressive and digital world, there is no need for NTSC or PAL ... I can have a video in 27fps, 233 fps or anything I want and it should be OK. Modern DVD players should be able to pass it, as any PC player can do it.

Is that correct, or I totally misunderstood my readings and the point ?

So, why a modern product like Scenarist4 is not open for other framerates ?
Are the current specs for future DVD limited to that ? Why ?

Thank you.

[dvdboy]

Don't ask me man, I only work here!

I guess the easiest answer is that it's all to do with specs and standards and legacy format support.

But let's look at this on the flip side - currently most if not all HD DVD & Blu-Ray players do not support PAL-based resolutions, so no 25fps, 50fps etc.

You've got to remember that these are all based on aquisition formats, whether that means film (24fps), or video (29.97, 59.94, 25, 50fps).

Here's the framerates that Sonic Cinevision supports:

* 59.94
* 50
* 29.97
* 25
* 24
* 23.98
* 3:2 pull-down insertion

Which is more than DVD supported. If you are just working in an internet / computer based system, of course you've got more choice, but DVD and HD is inherently an offshoot of Broadcast, and therefore follows their specs and standards.

HTH

[MarcioAB]

Don't ask me man, I only work here!and that is great !!

HD is inherently an offshoot of Broadcast, and therefore follows their specs and standards.That is an interesting point. Difficult (for me) to get that it is not an offshoot of high speed optical media.

So I need to look somewhere else beyond Scenarist ...

Thank you
Marcio