1450 MB limit, which codec?

[FSB-SPY]

Well, right now I'm ripping movies and encoding with DivX4.11, quality is very important to me, and time is pretty much infinite. I've been hearing much about DivX3 still being better? Is this one of the areas it's better, when you have a lot more than just 700 MBs to work with? Or is it the other way around, and DivX4.11 is my best choice? I'm using Gordian Knot .21 to make it all happen. ;)

[MxxCon]

well, since your time is "pretty much infinite" encode both and compare :)
i belive divx 3.11 still makes better quality movies.
otherwise "scene" would switch to divx4 ;)
but difference is pretty small. some could say it's a matter of taste

[amni]

Hi

This codec maybe better than any DIVX.
It's approach to blurr-crisp is different than
the approach of DIVX and resembles the
blurr-crisp approach of wavelet\jpeg2000
compression for stills,
many people like it better that way.

It is also simpler to get good results without
many tests, the cost is that it is not possible
to predict the size (because that codec
refuses to accept bad quality: if the quality
is too bad it forces using more bitrate).
For most films if you suggest 1200kbs bitrates
for video you get something which looks almost like
the original (it might take actually
average 1300kbs or or 1400kbs if there are
many "complicated" scenes).
In any case it fits into 2x80 minutes CDs
and leaves enough room for good sound.




Originally posted by FSB-SPY
Well, right now I'm ripping movies and encoding with DivX4.11, quality is very important to me, and time is pretty much infinite. I've been hearing much about DivX3 still being better? Is this one of the areas it's better, when you have a lot more than just 700 MBs to work with? Or is it the other way around, and DivX4.11 is my best choice? I'm using Gordian Knot .21 to make it all happen. ;)

[^ogro^]

Originally posted by FSB-SPY
Well, right now I'm ripping movies and encoding with DivX4.11, quality is very important to me, and time is pretty much infinite. I've been hearing much about DivX3 still being better? Is this one of the areas it's better, when you have a lot more than just 700 MBs to work with? Or is it the other way around, and DivX4.11 is my best choice? I'm using Gordian Knot .21 to make it all happen. ;)

You have two options:

Divx 3.11, method SBC:

dvd2avi+ avisynth (also vfapi,slower) + nandub

or

Divx 4.12 codec with virtualdub, or GordianKnot.

Try and compare, the decision is yours ;)

[FSB-SPY]

Originally posted by amni
Hi

This codec maybe better than any DIVX.
It's approach to blurr-crisp is different than
the approach of DIVX and resembles the
blurr-crisp approach of wavelet\jpeg2000
compression for stills,
many people like it better that way.


Where could I get this codec? And you said it'll fit onto 2 80-minute CDs, that's pretty much perfect. (Unless it won't fit the 1450 MB cap with min BR of 128, ABR 165, and max BR of 192 for the audio.)

[FSB-SPY]

Originally posted by ^ogro^


You have two options:

Divx 3.11, method SBC:

dvd2avi+ avisynth (also vfapi,slower) + nandub

or

Divx 4.12 codec with virtualdub, or GordianKnot.

Try and compare, the decision is yours ;)

Pardon the ignorance, but... SBC = ???. ;)

As for the second method (dvd2avi, avisynth, etc) I'm already using DVD2AVI, so I know about that, but what are avisynth and vfapi? (And Nandub is like VirtualDub? GordianKnot installed them both.)

[ProfDrMorph]

SBC = ???
SBC ( Smart Bitrate Control, I think ) is some kind of complicated 2pass method for DivX3.11. Nandub was the first program to support it.

I'm already using DVD2AVI, so I know about that, but what are avisynth and vfapi?
AviSynth and VFAPI are frame servers. With them you can open MPEG2 sources in VirtualDub/Nandub or many other programs which support .avi input. Doom9 has wrote excellent guides on how to use them. You should try using GordianKnot. It's a simple frontend which uses AviSynth ( the faster frame server ).

And Nandub is like VirtualDub?
Yes. Nandub is a modified version of VirtualDub. Besides some minor features ( MP3 input, Ogg Vorbis input, etc. ) it's major difference towards VirtualDub is SBC support.

[FSB-SPY]

Ahh, thanks for the reply. Well, I already used Gordian Knot. (GKnot uses AviSynth, DVD2AVI, and VirtualDub it now seems.) Should I bother to go to Nandub when using GKnot, or just stick with VirtualDub and be happy with my results? ;)

[ProfDrMorph]

IMO Nandub isn't worth the effort. I don't get better results with Nandub but it's more complicated. You can try it. Many others think that Nandub is still better than 2-pass DivX4.

[amni]

Hi

VP3 is free for personal use. Downloadable in
WWW.VP3.COM.

You don't have to use complicated calculations for it's
parameters, it does a nice job if you suggest reasonable
bitrate. For 200000 pixels per frame and 25 frames per second,
namely 5000000 pixels per second,
1200kbs is a reasonable suggestion. It will take 5% to 10%
more bitrates if there are many complicated scenes which need
more than 1200kbs. The suggested bitrate should be proportional to
the number of pixels per second, eg: if the video takes 6000000
pixels per second then add 20% percents to the suggested 1200kbs
(namely, suggest 1440kbs for video).

After You you get the video you can decide how much space
remains for audio (and audio encoding is fairly predictable).
You can mux the audio using VirtualDub ("direct stream copy" for
video).

For most movies there will be enough space for average 128kbs audio bitrate.

Note one thing: the encoding of VP3 and the playback takes
more CPU than DIVX. CPU 800MHz is more than enough.



Originally posted by FSB-SPY


Where could I get this codec? And you said it'll fit onto 2 80-minute CDs, that's pretty much perfect. (Unless it won't fit the 1450 MB cap with min BR of 128, ABR 165, and max BR of 192 for the audio.)

[TheWEF]

2-pass-divx3 with gknot is nandub sbc.

IMHO the only (but important) advantage of sbc is exact size predictability. i'd say quality and speed is about the same.

i'll stay with divx3 until divx4 is as exact with the size. i hate it when a video gets oversized and has to be cut or reencoded.

wef.

[FSB-SPY]

Ahh, well the 2-pass I use with GKnot for DivX4.11 is fine for size prediction, I set the cap, and it comes under it just fine. So I guess I'll just stick with this, I'm not complaining about the quality. :)

As for the VP3 codec, it's too new I think... no guides are really out there, and the lack of any support for good file size prediction is very bad I'd say.

[amni]

You set at most 8 obvious parameters and that's all.
No need for guides.

If your video bitrate is not "too low" it will never take
more than 10% above the value you suggest, often not more
than 5% above the suggested value. Therefoe, in practice it
is quite predictable.

[FSB-SPY]

Where do you set the params for VP3? And which program do I use, VirtualDub? (Do I open my .AVS file in there?)

[ProfDrMorph]

Where do you set the params for VP3? And which program do I use, VirtualDub? (Do I open my .AVS file in there?)
Yes just open the .AVS file in VirtualDub, set Video processing to Fast Recompress and then choose VP3 from the video compression list and than you can enter bitrate at the bottom. I suggest you don't enter a value for keyframes here and use VP3s automatic scene change detection mechanism ( click on configure to be able to alter the codec configuration even more ).

[amni]

Hi

I used AVI2AVI as frame server, maybe other frame servers
work as well.

There are 6 parameters in the configuration tab of VP3 itself
and two parameters in the "select video compression" tab of
Virtual Dub. At first try, set in Virtual Dub's tab the
suggested bitrate (tick the "use target data") and insert
the bitrate (eg, 1200 kilobyte/second).
The second parameter of virtual Dub (regarding keyframes)
should remain un-ticked.

Then, in the tab of VP3 configuration un-tick "quick compress"
(this will give the best possible encode and double the
time of encoding), un-tick "drop frames" and tick "auto key frame"
(the last tick means: inserts automatically key frames in
scene changes).

The remaining three slide parameters may remain the default values
(you may change them a bit after having more experience,
these last parameters control distribution of key frames,
the "threshhold" means "scaled difference" and it gives
you the possibility to decide what "threshold" means
scene change and key frame insertion).

All this done for video alone and "no audio" unless
you want to use VirtualDub's no-VBR MP3 compression.
I understood you want VBR.

The audio should be done in a second pass of VirtualDub
if you want VBR compression, the video will be set to "direct copy"
in that second pass. For VBR use NANDUB version of Virtual
Dub (the only Virtual Dub I know to support VBR MP3).





Originally posted by FSB-SPY
Where do you set the params for VP3? And which program do I use, VirtualDub? (Do I open my .AVS file in there?)

[FSB-SPY]

Thanks guys, I tried it without much success though...

I used the same k/sec as my GKnot set for my rip of Swordfish, 1870. And within the first 5 minutes of it encoding, it already ran up to 1200 MBs, and keep in mind, it kept on going. So there is definitely something wrong. :(

[ProfDrMorph]

I hope you guys know that the bitrate you set in On2 VP3 is in kiloBYTES not kiloBITS. So you have to divide the bitrate GKnot calculates by 8 ( use DivX3.11 mode for bitrate calculation ).

[amni]

Right. I meant 1200 kiloBITS per second, namely about 150 kiloBYTES
per second. Sorry about my spell error.

Originally posted by ProfDrMorph
I hope you guys know that the bitrate you set in On2 VP3 is in kiloBYTES not kiloBITS. So you have to divide the bitrate GKnot calculates by 8 ( use DivX3.11 mode for bitrate calculation ).

[Peters]

Originally posted by amni
Hi
...

Then, in the tab of VP3 configuration un-tick "quick compress"
(this will give the best possible encode and double the
time of encoding), un-tick "drop frames" and tick "auto key frame"
(the last tick means: inserts automatically key frames in
scene changes).


From the help of VP3

" Quick Compress

Determines how much time the compressor spends correlating motion. Un-checking this box provides video that is about 1-2 % better than having it checked, but takes nearly twice as much time to compress. "

I'm unable to see the difference of quality beetween Quick compress checked or not. So why spending 2x time?

[amni]

Hi

I didn't tried much the quick compress. Maybe many people
need less than best possible quality, for them this
maybe good. I'm perfectionist. And I don't know what 2%
means, may what they consider 2% I consider 20%,
it is not possible to quantify perception (this depends
on personal taste). So after one sees VP3
at it best quality and at it's faster mode
he can decide what fit his taste.


Originally posted by Peters

From the help of VP3

" Quick Compress

Determines how much time the compressor spends correlating motion. Un-checking this box provides video that is about 1-2 % better than having it checked, but takes nearly twice as much time to compress. "

I'm unable to see the difference of quality beetween Quick compress checked or not. So why spending 2x time?

[FSB-SPY]

How long does it take to encode with the option on? (quick compress)

[Peters]

Originally posted by amni
Hi

I didn't tried much the quick compress. Maybe many people
need less than best possible quality, for them this
maybe good. I'm perfectionist. And I don't know what 2%
means, may what they consider 2% I consider 20%,
it is not possible to quantify perception (this depends
on personal taste). So after one sees VP3
at it best quality and at it's faster mode
he can decide what fit his taste.




Hi, Just try encoding with and without quick compress .
If you see the difference, then you have better eyes than Superman...:)

[amni]

If you set this in other place maybe your bitrate
setting is ignored in you get "uncompressed" video.


Originally posted by FSB-SPY
Thanks guys, I tried it without much success though...

I used the same k/sec as my GKnot set for my rip of Swordfish, 1870. And within the first 5 minutes of it encoding, it already ran up to 1200 MBs, and keep in mind, it kept on going. So there is definitely something wrong. :(

[Peters]

Originally posted by FSB-SPY
Thanks guys, I tried it without much success though...

I used the same k/sec as my GKnot set for my rip of Swordfish, 1870. And within the first 5 minutes of it encoding, it already ran up to 1200 MBs, and keep in mind, it kept on going. So there is definitely something wrong. :(

Vp3 asks you the bitrate in Kbyte and Gknot in Kbit.

So if you have 800 with Gknot, you have to put 800/8=100 in VP3 to get the same bitrate

[amni]

This is the same attitude as people towards MP3 stereo:
most people don't see any difference between 128kbs stereo
and 256kbs stereo, some do.
Quick VP3 encode is very good.




Originally posted by Peters


Hi, Just try encoding with and without quick compress .
If you see the difference, then you have better eyes than Superman...:)

[FSB-SPY]

Doh! Doh! Doh!

I add the job into VirtualDub, hit the 'Start' button, and VirtualDub quits out. (Probably crashes out...)

:(

[Peters]

Originally posted by FSB-SPY
Doh! Doh! Doh!

I add the job into VirtualDub, hit the 'Start' button, and VirtualDub quits out. (Probably crashes out...)

:(

I know :( Don't use job with VP3, Direct encoding

[Peters]

Originally posted by amni
This is the same attitude as people towards MP3 stereo:
most people don't see any difference between 128kbs stereo
and 256kbs stereo, some do.
Quick VP3 encode is very good.


hmmm. The comparison is too extreme to make sense :)
There is such a difference beetween 128 and 256 kb MP3...It's so easy for me to find the difference but compare 160 kb and 192kb it becomes harder.
For VP3 imagine the difference beetween 1000 kb/s and 1020 kb/s and you got an idea of what happens when you check or not quick compress

[FSB-SPY]

Thanks Peters, that did the trick.

Unfortunately, I did a preview of the video (hit abort after a couple of minutes of it encoding) and it was in black and white? Did I miss something or does it somehow magically add the color in at the last second of encoding? ;)