Nero Digital (Mobile AVC profile) and Sony Ericsson K610i

[numaios]

Hello!

I've been testing H.264/AVC video in Sony Ericsson K610i.

I found in the specifications that it supports H.264 Baseline Profile (Main subset), Level 1b (in 3GP or MP4).

So I tried to reencode an episode of 41 minutes with Nero Recode 2, using Mobile AVC profile, setting target file size to 50 Mb, with a resolution of 176x96 pixels, @15 fps, AAC audio (40 kbps).

I have transfered it to the phone but it can't play it.

Any idea? Is Mobile AVC compatible with Baseline profile (main subset) level 1b? Maybe is it bitrate issue?

Thank you very much.

[bond]

Is Mobile AVC compatible with Baseline profile (main subset) level 1b?ask nero. no, wait, dont waste your time, they dont tell the details of their profiles...

use x264 in megui by setting the baseline profile and level you want

[numaios]

use x264 in megui by setting the baseline profile and level you wantOK, I'll give it a try.

:thanks:

[Sergey A. Sablin]

ask nero. no, wait, dont waste your time, they dont tell the details of their profiles...

use x264 in megui by setting the baseline profile and level you want

x264 can't write (and even read) level 1b right now. MeGUI wont help either

[bond]

x264 can't write (and even read) level 1b right now. MeGUI wont help eitherwhats the difference between level 1 and 1b? i assume 1 is smaller than 1b, so he might be successfull by using level1?

[akupenguin]

level 1: vbv-maxrate=64 kbit/s, vbv-bufsize=175 kbit.
level 1b: vbv-maxrate=128 kbit/s, vbv-bufsize=350 kbit.
The rest of the parameters are identical.
x264 doesn't understand "1b" because level is a number and I'm not going to change it just for the one level that contains a letter. Especially since levels are just informative anyway and you can set --vbv-maxrate=128 --vbv-bufsize=350 regardless of whether there's a level for it or not.

[Sagittaire]

level 1: vbv-maxrate=64 kbit/s, vbv-bufsize=175 kbit.
level 1b: vbv-maxrate=128 kbit/s, vbv-bufsize=350 kbit.
The rest of the parameters are identical.
x264 doesn't understand "1b" because level is a number and I'm not going to change it just for the one level that contains a letter. Especially since levels are just informative anyway and you can set --vbv-maxrate=128 --vbv-bufsize=350 regardless of whether there's a level for it or not.

well but vbv work correctly just for cbr mode ...

[numaios]

you can set --vbv-maxrate=128 --vbv-bufsize=350 regardless of whether there's a level for it or not.OK, thank you very much!

Can Maximum motion vector search range affect compatibility?

[Sergey A. Sablin]

level 1: vbv-maxrate=64 kbit/s, vbv-bufsize=175 kbit.
level 1b: vbv-maxrate=128 kbit/s, vbv-bufsize=350 kbit.
The rest of the parameters are identical.
x264 doesn't understand "1b" because level is a number and I'm not going to change it just for the one level that contains a letter. Especially since levels are just informative anyway and you can set --vbv-maxrate=128 --vbv-bufsize=350 regardless of whether there's a level for it or not.
it is not just informative - some devices really use Level as conformace sign and may either crash or playback incorrectly such streams.
And yes, the only difference is bitrate and buffer, but this is the most important (almost the only one) beetween any two levels (max length/number of MVs etc are much less important, you know)

well but vbv work correctly just for cbr mode ...

it doesn't. no padding -> no CBR at all.

[shon3i]

level 1: vbv-maxrate=64 kbit/s, vbv-bufsize=175 kbit.
level 1b: vbv-maxrate=128 kbit/s, vbv-bufsize=350 kbit.
The rest of the parameters are identical.
x264 doesn't understand "1b" because level is a number and I'm not going to change it just for the one level that contains a letter. Especially since levels are just informative anyway and you can set --vbv-maxrate=128 --vbv-bufsize=350 regardless of whether there's a level for it or not.
Thanks you akupenguin this work on my k750i.

Btw i don't know what is correct policy of nero avc profiles, looks like nero want make new independet standard aka nero digital.

[JohnV]

Btw i don't know what is correct policy of nero avc profiles, looks like nero want make new independet standard aka nero digital.Well, all I can say at this point is that there is more "flexibility" under work for our encoder..

[numaios]

I have tried with: vbv-maxrate=128 kbit/s, vbv-bufsize=350 kbit. When I analize the final mp4 file with YAMB, it reports:

MPEG-4 Config
Visual Stream - ObjectTypeIndication 0x21
AVC/H264 Video - Visual Size 176 x 96 - Profile Baseline @ Level 1.1
Decoding Buffer size 7269 - Average bitrate 109 kbps - Max Bitrate 312 kbps
No stream dependencies for decoding
StreamPriority 0

If I set max. bitrate as 128, why did I get 312 kbps as max?

Thanks you akupenguin this work on my k750i.shon3i, did you reduce frame rate to 15 fps? Or the original frame rate also worked in your k750i? Stereo AAC is supported in a video? Or only mono?

[shon3i]

shon3i, did you reduce frame rate to 15 fps? Or the original frame rate also worked in your k750i? Stereo AAC is supported in a video? Or only mono?I leave fps untouched, but in final video picture looks like have 15 fps.

Stereo AAC is supported but isn't good for quality, because aac must be LC-AAC. Mono LC-AAC @ 32-48 sound's me good option

[akupenguin]

Decoding Buffer size 7269 - Average bitrate 109 kbps - Max Bitrate 312 kbps
If I set max. bitrate as 128, why did I get 312 kbps as max?
Because YAMB isn't evaluating it with the same buffer size. I don't know what units YAMB displays the buffer in, but 7269 of anything doesn't sound like 350kbit.

[numaios]

:thanks:
in final video picture looks like have 15 fps.When you play it in your phone or in your PC?

EDIT: WOW!! It works!! I ran two tests, at 15 fps and 25 fps. And both played correctly in my SE K610i. All frames were decoded in both cases (the 25fps-sample played perfectly smooth).

Because YAMB isn't evaluating it with the same buffer size.OK! Thanks.

Well, all I can say at this point is that there is more "flexibility" under work for our encoder..So in the near future we'll be able to encode in Baseline profile @ level 1b with Nero's Mobile AVC profile, setting some parameters?

[shon3i]

When you play it in your phone or in your PC?on my phone, can you send me some short clip you encoded.

[numaios]

I sent you the short clip throgh PM :)

I made it with MeGUI and x264.
-First of all, I separated the audio and video streams with VDubMod.
-The AviSynth file was:
DirectShowSource("F:\md.avi",fps=25,audio=false)
LanczosResize(176,96)
-I used video profile "CE-Baseline".
-The parameters of x264. I only changed a few values. In "RC and ME" tab: VBV Buffer Size: 350, VBV Maximum Bitrate: 128 (to make it compliant with level 1b), M.E. Range: 32, M.E. Algorithm: multi hex or exhaustive, Subpixel refinement: level 7. In "Main" tab: Bitrate: 112, AVC profile: Baseline profile, AVC level: 1.1
-I encoded audio with Nero AAC Encoder, using HE-AAC@40 kbps (since K610i has full suport for HE-AAC, even HE-AAC v2 (or eAAC+ or HE-AAC+PS). I also tried VBR q 0.15 and I got an average bitrate of 35 kbps, with SBR and PS.

[shon3i]

I didn't know that k610i have sbr support, that is aswome. I don't know why K750 don't have it. Thanks

[numaios]

I didn't know that k610i have sbr support, that is aswome.Yes, with SBR and Parametric Stereo you can store music at 40 kbps with almost CD quality.

[Randi]

Could somebody please upload examples(or send me the files)? That would be highly appreciated!
Thanks in advance
Randi

[IgorC]

Yes, with SBR and Parametric Stereo you can store music at 40 kbps with almost CD quality.
Parametric stereo isn't enough recommended at 40 kbps. Check nero encoder. Only for 39 kbps and lower. However some not full stereo material can sound better with PS. And 40 kbps has near-CD quality only if you have plastic cheapest 3$ loudspeakers

[numaios]

Could somebody please upload examples(or send me the files)? That would be highly appreciated! Randi, I have alredy sent them via PM.

Parametric stereo isn't enough recommended at 40 kbps.OK, actually I only use it for 32-35 kbps. By the way, is it possible that a song sounds better at 35 kbps without PS than at 35 kbps with PS?

And 40 kbps has near-CD quality only if you have plastic cheapest 3$ loudspeakersWe are talking about playing these files in a mobile device like a Sony Ericsson phone, in the middle of street, with a lot of traffic noise :D

[Randi]

Thanks a lot for the files! Unfortunatly, I got the same problem as with my own created files, namely that my W900 plays them, but no video, only audio. I also tried to remux them to 3gp with yamb to see if the container/extension made a difference, but no difference. Really strange phenomenon! Will try updating my phone firmware tonite.

Randi

[numaios]

Maybe W900 only supports H.263 or MPEG-4 ASP video, but not H.264. So it's logical that you can't play them in 3gp or mp4 container.

I'm trying MPEG-4 ASP this way:
-I encode the movie using Gordian Knot and XviD codec (Simple Profile @ level 2) to AVI.
-I encode the audio with Nero AAC Encode/GUI
-I mux video and audio to 3gp or mp4 with YAMB.

I will send a sample with these settings and see if your W900 plays them.

By the way, to any moderator: Can I post a link to a 30 seconds sample without breaking any rule?

Thank you.

[Randi]

Thanks a lot for your answer, maybe I should have made myself clearer :-) The W900 should play H264 , as stated in the SE documents, Baseline 1 and 1b (in this doc it also says that K750 and W800 do NOT support any h264), and it is far supperior to for example the K750 (able to play 320x240 with 25fps and he-aac in SP). It also supports mp4 and 3gp container, our company provides streams in these formats (encoded with HM Prod, Xenon, QT etc). Thats why I was so curious about your success stories.
Your sample files are ASP files which are not supposed to work, unless you got a W950, M600 or P990, as all other SE only support level 0 SP. (I will try anyway :-) )
BTW the firmware update didnt help, still only audio.

Update: W900 plays both of ur sample files, quite typical for mobile phones, specs never match the actual reality :-)

[numaios]

Sorry, when I said MPEG-4 ASP I meant general concept of MPEG-4 part 2, but samples are actually in SP@L2.

Excuse me, did you say that K750 supports 320x240 in SP? Amazing. I will try with K610, it doesn't support anything bigger than 176x144 in H.264, but maybe in SP... :)

[Randi]

Have a look at their specs at http://developer.sonyericsson.com/site/global/docstools/multimedia/p_multimedia.jsp?cc=gb&lc=en&ver=4000&template=ps3&zone=ps The doc is called "Developers' Guidelines - Music and Video in Sony Ericsson phones"

[yup]

Thanks you akupenguin this work on my k750i.

Btw i don't know what is correct policy of nero avc profiles, looks like nero want make new independet standard aka nero digital.

Hi shon3i!
Please speak me Your set for x.264 and for sound. I use for video176x144 size all remain set as recomended in this thread. I muxed to mp4 stream. When I upload to mopbile phone I listen only music.
With kind regards yup.

[leomax]

Can i have those sample videos as well.
:thanks:

and is there any good frontend which i can install without bothering to configure ,for my usage of encoding h.264 in baseline profile from 1-2?

[giandrea]

Just for the sake of completeness... Samsung D600 can play 352x288 MPEG4 SP (don't know the level, just no Bframes, no GMC and no QPEL) and HE-AAC too (not PS).

I believe that the Samsung D900 can play the same files because it is based on the exact same platform.

I didn't try low res H264, but almost certainly it won't play them... :(