should I get a SVHS player for poor quality tapes?

[collector83]

I've got an ADS Tech DVD Xpress USBAV 701 Rev. 2 (it's a USB 2.0 capture box with an onboard MPEG encoder that is based on the Cirrus Logic 2199 chip). It does good for capturing my home movies and other master tapes, but a small number of tapes are a few generations away from the source and do not capture well.

One of the forum members here has an avatar that is a picture of Homer Simpson, except there are, for lack of a better description, "two" of Homer where ideally, there should only be one. This is what happens when I try to capture my poor VHS tapes. The captured video is poorly interlaced and ghost images are present in many frames. It doesn't look this bad when I watch the tape on my TV. I can post a small JPG sample if needed.

Thinking the problem might be because I have an inexpensive capture device, I tried it on my friend's PC - he's got an ATI All-in-Wonder PCIe card plugged into a machine that runs on AMD dual core processing. But the video still looks the same. So I feel like that is not a problem.

But my VCR is just a consumer grade Sony, cost less than $100 new. I've read a lot of hardware recommendations in this forum and other places, and now I'm trying to decide whether to pay for a decent SVHS deck. I've found one used, which is in good condition. This model does have some form of noise reduction and TBC, and of course an S-Vid output, but it's definitely going to cost more than $100. I'm willing to spend some money, but I don't know enough to be sure that it would help, considering that my source tape is still garbage. I would like some advice from others before I make a decision. I appreciate any help, thanks for reading.

[VWRacer]

If it's crappy on VHS, SVHS won't clean up anything. Let me rephrase that. You can't buy a good SVHS deck for the price you're looking at. My cheapest one ran 1,500 usd. My units are all JVC, and some have a few bells and whistles that might clean up some of the mess. If they are copies to begin with, that would be the problem. Image and color stability shift drastically the more tape copies you make of each other. Unless it is an irreplacable tape of family memories, I'd go looking for an original somewhere.

Good luck,
Racer

[collector83]

Thanks for your reply. This concerns less than 10 tapes, of televised sporting events that will never see any kind of official release (if they do, I'll eat my words, save myself a lot of trouble, and buy them). Like family memories, these tapes have a lot of nostalgiac moments I'd like to eventually archive. A master copy of any of these tapes would be very rare. I wasn't surprised EP-speed, nth gen. tapes don't capture very well, but I was a bit disappointed.

1500 USD is definitely not worth it right now. What makes a SVHS deck a good one? I know some features to look for, but what sets a 1500 USD deck apart from one that sells in the 100-300 USD range used on ebay? If it's going to cost in the 1000's I think I'll lock the tapes in a vault somewhere until I can afford to invest some real money into this project.

[Mug Funky]

a deck with a TBC (time-base corrector) in it is usually what's needed.

however, if you get a picture like Scharfi's avatar, then maybe it's just the tracking? probably not though :)

also, it's debatable whether TBC's help all that much with multi-generation dubs. at least it couldn't hurt...

[collector83]

Here's a JPG screenshot (540x356, ~45kb) taken from a music video...

example (http://img182.imageshack.us/img182/2940/examplett9.jpg)

Imagine 99% of your video frames looking like this. Definitely not a tracking issue...

I understand garbage in = garbage out, but I would like my capture to be the closest possible representation of what's stored on the VHS tape. I will try connecting my other VCRs to this capture unit and see if my results change any. I've got a 2nd Sony SLV-N750 (same model deck as the one I use now, but sometimes the two give different results on the same tape) and also a Toshiba W522 that performs nicely. If that doesn't work, I may still try to win an auction on one of those used SVHS decks - as you say, Funky, couldn't hurt. I won't get my hopes up, but if it doesn't help I can always resell it.

[setarip_old]

Hi!This concerns less than 10 tapes, of televised sporting eventsSo, what does a screengrab of a music video have to do with your problematic tapes?

If I remember correctly, what your screengrab is exhibiting is pretty much standard when you capture EP tapes...

[Surf]

I still think it's a tracking issue. Try to get hold of an old vcr with knob(manual) tracking adjustment.

I have zero faith in you succeeding with SVHS player.

[collector83]

@ setarip - The music vid screenshot was a convenient example, and I apologize if I created any confusion. The sports tapes have the same problem. So far, this problem has only been with those crappy multi-gen. tapes.

@ Surf - Your third sentence could potentially save me a lot of money :) Is there something that makes knob tracking better than the channel/tracking button on more recent VCRs?

[Surf]

I didn't mean to sound like an expert on vcrs :p

If I were you, I'd hit on anyone within vicinity and try out their vcrs, friends/neighbours, before spending dollas which can still be a hit n miss.

I mentioned knobs or sliders which are more prevailing on older vcrs because they are "more aggressive" in re-alignment.

Guten luck!

[JohnnyMalaria]

Here's a JPG screenshot (540x356, ~45kb) taken from a music video...

example (http://img182.imageshack.us/img182/2940/examplett9.jpg)

Imagine 99% of your video frames looking like this. Definitely not a tracking issue...


Clearly.....interlacing. Nothing more (some jitter).

(A slight camera pan left/right and the artist moving significantly left/right).

Can you repost a full size frame?

[LoRd_MuldeR]

@collector83:
This video in your sample is interlaced! Did you use a deinterlacer ???
If not, that would be the solution ;)

More info: http://www.100fps.com/

[collector83]

@ LoRd_MuldeR: Before I started this thread, I made an attempt at software deinterlacing. I used VirtualDubMod + built in deinterlace filter, set to duplicate field 1. The picture looked a lot more stable and I would have been very pleased with it, but I tried some different codecs and all of them gave me some a/v sync errors. At that time, I had also been reading the 100fps web site. I tried using the recommended "deinterlace - smooth" filter, but it didn't have any visible effect on my video. I've put deinterlacing on the shelf for now, but it's still the closest I've come to what could be called success.

@ JohnnyMalaria: I don't have the same video on my hard drive any more, but I can capture another of my problematic videos in a few days if you'd like to see a full size frame shot.

@ Surf: I'm the only person I know in my area that has a VCR. But I still have two unused VCRs at my parents' house, maybe a third if it still works. After I get a chance to pick those up, then I can do some more experimenting.

[LoRd_MuldeR]

@collector83
If you use VirtualDub, then please install ffdshow (http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=173941) and enable the VirtualDub plugin during install. This will give you access to the "ffvdub" filter in VirtualDub. That filter allows you to use all of ffdshow's postprocessing filters inside of VirtualDub. There are various good Deinterlacers availabel. But I highly recomment you either use "Kernel Deinterlacer" (threshold needs to be low, if you want to remove all artifacts!) or "TomsMoComp". Furthermore take care that the Deinterlacer is always the first filter you apply to the video!

http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/5600/kerndeintmi6.th.gif (http://img138.imageshack.us/my.php?image=kerndeintmi6.gif)


If you use Avidemux or Avisynth, then try the TDeint filter. A very good deinterlacer :)

[Blue_MiSfit]

If you're considering investing into a really good VHS deck with a TBC at some point in the near future, something to consider is whether or not you will ever use it again :)

If not, it may be more cost effective to send your beloved tapes off to a lab, and have them do a pro quality conversion to MiniDV or DVD or lossless or whatever you want to work with.

~MiSfit