HD-DVD 1080p VC-1, MPEG2 and H264 at 24 fps ...

[Sagittaire]

... compliant or not compliant with HD-DVD standard? That is the question ... ;-)

[CruNcher]

I don't think that the Firmware is so restrictive that it wouldn't work, but who knows.
Sonys PSP is the best example of a Device wich really shows how you can criple the Device capable features just by very restrictive Firmware and i think we gonna see this more often in the Future with CE Devices as they get more and more computer like.

[Golgot13]

There is lot of HD DVD's restrictions and more (some authoring softwares don't accept
video because it is not compliant or they don't have good information: NAL_Header, SEI,...).

Sagitaire are you sure for 24 fps? It is not 23.976fps ? :p

I sure that the chipset inside the box (Broadcom for all HD DVD player) can play more video
than HD DVD's restriction but I am sure that all hardware chipset make for this application
accept the restriction of HD DVD (example: Sigma Design chipset SMP863X is compliant).
So if we know all restrictions of hardware chipset could be use to make HD DVD,
we will know the HD DVD restriction :it's hard ( Sonic solution want to make a new association
of manufacturing actor to be sure that their software work perfectly).

I know some restriction of this two chipsets ( I have Netgem 7600 HD which use the SMP8635 ).



Golgot13

[drmpeg]

23.976 or 24 fps 1080p is not compliant with HD-DVD. See this document:

http://www.dvdforum.org/images/Requirements%20Specification%20for%20HD%20DVD%20Video%20Application-July2005.pdf

You must use 29.97 fps interlaced and telecine flags (repeat_first_field, top_field_first and progressive_frame for MPEG-2).

Blu-ray does allow straight 1080p@23.976 and 1080p@24.

Ron

[Golgot13]

The 23.976 is full compliant HD DVD, all HD DVD in USA is
in VC1 at 23.976fps progressif (not 29.97 with telecinema flag).

There was lot of change between July 2005 and November 2005 (finaly release of HD DVD: 1.01, publication in DVD Forum News letter).
For HD DVD Disc it is at 1.2 version (problem of Twin Disc format:
HD DVD and DVD disc in same side).

HD DVD support more (3 time more) resolutions size and framerate than BluRay disc (all DVD size,...).

Sagitaire, I will send some files in PM.


Golgot13

[drmpeg]

I'm afraid you are mistaken. All HD-DVD titles are 29.97 fps with telecine flags. Ask Stacey Spears (sspears on AvsForum) about the software utility that the studios/post houses use to convert 23.976 fps progressive VC-1 elementary streams to 29.97 fps with telecine flags.

I provided the link because it is available to the general public. I assure you and everyone else that the actual HD-DVD specification reads the same with regard to frame rates.

Ron

The 23.976 is full compliant HD DVD, all HD DVD in USA is
in VC1 at 23.976fps progressif (not 29.97 with telecinema flag).

There was lot of change between July 2005 and November 2005 (finaly release of HD DVD: 1.01, publication in DVD Forum News letter).
For HD DVD Disc it is at 1.2 version (problem of Twin Disc format:
HD DVD and DVD disc in same side).

HD DVD support more (3 time more) resolutions size and framerate than BluRay disc (all DVD size,...).

Sagitaire, I will send some files in PM.


Golgot13

[Hurricane Neddy]

I'm afraid you are mistaken. All HD-DVD titles are 29.97 fps with telecine flags. Ask Stacey Spears (sspears on AvsForum) about the software utility that the studios/post houses use to convert 23.976 fps progressive VC-1 elementary streams to 29.97 fps with telecine flags.

I provided the link because it is available to the general public. I assure you and everyone else that the actual HD-DVD specification reads the same with regard to frame rates.

So then why do the backs of all Warner HD DVDs that I've seen say 1080p?

[Hurricane Neddy]

For example let's take a look at the cover art for Troy.

http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/5338/197671da2.jpg

Last time I checked the term 1080p when referred to movies meant 1080p24. Correct me if I'm wrong. So unless you're going to claim that all the HD DVD releases are fradulently marked as 1080p I don't see where you're getting that HD DVD can't store 1080p24 content, when it quite clearly can and future players will be able to output the pure 24fps signal.

[Hurricane Neddy]

And to further add from http://www.digital-digest.com/highdefdvd/faq.html#faq417

http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/3526/hddvdspecsml8.png

So, so far all the sites I can find info on HD DVD specs from all state that it can store 1080p24 content, even the official HD DVD site, not to mention every HD DVD I've seen states it is 1080p. So, whom am I supposed to believe?

[CruNcher]

ehh didn't amirm long time ago said on avsforum that Hollywood HD-DVD content is stored progressively, so it isn't now ?.

[drmpeg]

I didn't say that content on HD-DVD wasn't stored progressively, I said that "All HD-DVD titles are 29.97 fps with telecine flags". The two statements "content on HD-DVD is progressive" and "All HD-DVD titles are 29.97 fps with telecine flags" are not mutually exclusive.

As for the digital-digest link, sorry, not good enough. As an industry insider, I have the HD-DVD specification. You'll have to point me to the paragraph that allows 23.976 or 24 fps video bitstreams, because it doesn't exist.

Please carefully read (starting at section 5.2) the DVD Forum link I provided previously:

http://www.dvdforum.org/images/Requirements%20Specification%20for%20HD%20DVD%20Video%20Application-July2005.pdf

It is excerpted directly from the HD-DVD specification.

Ron

[Sagittaire]

There are simply two way for telecine:
- You make pre-process telecine and 24@30 fps convertion. You make interlaced encoding at 1080i30. Player use 30 fps at 60 Hz.
- You make encoding at 1080p24. You make post process Telecine at 1080i30. Player use 30 fps at 60 Hz

Actualy for technical reason HD-DVD in NTSC region can't work at 48 or 72 Hz. You must use 60 Hz for output. And 60 Hz imply 24@30 fps telecine convertion for pre-process or post-process.

[zambelli]

I think what's confusing people is the difference between encoding framerate and decoding framerate. A movie can be encoded at 24p (and so far, in the case of all HD-DVDs, it has been). That means that in every second of MPEG or VC-1 bitstream, there are 24 unique encoded frames. The difference between HD-DVD and BluRay is that the HD-DVD standard requires such a bitstream to be flagged for 3:2 pulldown (aka telecine) in order to achieve a 29.97 fps output framerate. BluRay standard, on the other hand, says that the bitstream can be just plain 23.976 fps decoded at 23.976 fps - no telecine required.

HD-DVD is more like DVD in that regard. Take any modern commerical DVD and open the VOBs in DGIndex. If you decode with "Honor Pulldown Flags" enabled, the decoded framerate will actually be 29.97i. If you decode with "Forced Film" enabled, DGIndex will simply assume framerate to be 23.976 fps and ignore all the repeat flags. If the DVD was encoded with a good encoder (these days most commercial DVDs are), the entire film will come out as pure 23.976p.

[Golgot13]

If the DVD was encoded with a good encoder (these days most commercial DVDs are), the entire film will come out as pure 23.976p.

Hi all,

all people know that the movie framerate is 24 frame by second.
All new HD DVD are movies, not documentaries or series (now).
It is why all HD DVD are in 24P (and because it's support directly
HD DVD specification) for the main movie (some bonus track are
not in 24P). To be compliant with old standard (NTSC),
the exactly framerate is 23.976P (but it is easy to write 24P...).

Now, why some people say it is 29.97i or 30i, it is because the HDMI 1.1
(use on HD DVD player) and most LCD Tv don't support the 24P.
The HD DVD player do conversion to play video at 29.97i
(resolution supported by HDMI and HD TV set).
And if you use the last computer of Toshiba (with HD DVD drive
and HD DVD software player), you will can have 60P or little more.

I'm sure in 2007 or 2008, we will have HD DVD player in progressif frame
(with the last HDMI chipset 1.3) and TV set which can support
60p, 50p, 30p, 25p and 24p...



Golgot13

[Hurricane Neddy]

As for the digital-digest link, sorry, not good enough. As an industry insider, I have the HD-DVD specification. You'll have to point me to the paragraph that allows 23.976 or 24 fps video bitstreams, because it doesn't exist.

First of all they site all the sources for the info they use. It is all official information and white papers. Not to mention that the HD DVD official website talks about the content being stored as 1080p. Just becuase it contains telecine flags for decoding doesn't change the fact that HD DVD can contain content at 1080p24 which all movies that have been released to date have been.

[drmpeg]

Just because it contains telecine flags for decoding doesn't change the fact that HD DVD can contain content at 1080p24 which all movies that have been released to date have been.
So we are in agreement. However, the original poster asked if "HD-DVD 1080p VC-1, MPEG2 and H.264 at 24 fps is compliant or not compliant with the HD-DVD standard".

Well, of course HD-DVD can handle 24 fps video. All films are 24 fps, so it's crucial. However, if you consider Sagittaire's motive for asking this question, then you'll know that he has started another thread discussing the coding of public domain uncompressed source. See:

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=114928

This source is a set of 15691 1920x1080 progressive frames that appears to be 23.976 fps (this rate provides the best match to the length of the uncompressed audio provided). Since he and others will be using software encoders, then it's natural to code this source at 1080p23.976 progressive.

But there two encoded bitstream syntax structures that we can use. Let's use MPEG-2 as the example, because folks (including me) are more familiar with it.

Syntax #1

frame_rate_value = 23.976
progressive_sequence = 1
top_field_first = 0 (for all frames)
repeat_first_field = 0 (for all frames)
progressive_frame = 1 (for all frames)

Syntax #2

frame_rate_value = 29.97
progressive_sequence = 0
top_field_first = 0 or 1 (see example below)
repeat_first_field = 0 or 1 (see example below)
progressive_frame = 1 (for all frames)

rff tff
0 1 frame 1
1 1 frame 2
0 0 frame 3
1 0 frame 4
0 1 frame 5
1 1 frame 6
0 0 frame 7
1 0 frame 8 ..... and so on for the entire clip.

The two syntaxes are equivilant. In fact you can write a tool that converts the bitstream between the two by just adjusting the syntax elements listed above.

However, syntax #1 is not allowed on HD-DVD. You must use syntax #2.

On Blu-ray, either syntax is allowed.

Ron