Advice about capturing video needed....

[bloodem]

Hello!
Could anyone, please, give me some advice about the best way/best program to capture video from a Panasonic NV-GS27 DV camera onto my computer?

I tried many programs (ScenalyzerLive, Windows Movie Maker, WinDV, etc) but results aren't satisfying. What bothers me most of all is the fact that I get a 13 GB interlaced video file and I have trouble deinterlacing it... I could use an advice regarding what deinterlacing method gives the best results.

Thanks!

[neuron2]

give me some advice about the best way/best program
...
what deinterlacing method gives the best results No, we can't answer questions about the best anything, per forum rule 12. And since you have more than 20 posts, you should know about it, so, struck for rule 12.

http://forum.doom9.org/forum-rules.htm

[bloodem]

I don't think I deserved that. All I wanted was some help. By "best program" I meant a known program used by doom9 users (whom I appreciate very much) or at least a guide because I couldn't find a satisfying one. Further more I think that there is always a program or a method which surpasses other programs/methods (for eg. the "best" way to encode a DVD - and I'm sure many agree on this one - is to use CCE). So, in my opinion, there must be a better program (better than the programs I used) to transfer video from a MiniDV cassette

[bb]

bloodem,

first of all I second what neuron2 said. But that does not mean you won't get help here. In order to avoid flame wars, we don't talk in superlatives here; you should ask for recommendations, "good" programs, a "better" option to do something, etc.

Regarding your problem, I'm afraid that all DV capture programs deliver the same result, because they merely copy the video from DV tape via firewire to your PC's hdd. Thus, if the video you recorded is interlaced, the video on your hdd will be interlaced, too, because it's just a copy. And there's nothing you can do about the file size either for just the same reason. The only exception are programs that process the video while capturing - but that is not recommended for quality reasons. E.g. MainConcept MPEG Encoder can capture DV directly to DVD compliant MPEG-2, or Dr. DivX can capture DV directly to DivX AVIs. Some DV NLEs have similar options, e.g. Ulead VideoStudio.

I recommend to capture the video unaltered. Further processing depends on what your target format is. For DVDs I would not deinterlace, but rather keep it interlaced.

bb

[bloodem]

thank you very much for your answer. I know there's nothing I can do about the interlacing when transfering the video from tape... My target format is AVI, XviD. So this is what I do: I transfer the video using Panasonic Motion DV Studio onto the HDD. I end up with a 13 GB avi file. (The video is interlaced PAL, 720 x 576). When opening the file with Media Player Classic, the video is perfect, there is no interlacing but when opening the file in VirtualDubMod the interlacing is pretty obvious. So here's my problem... what to do? Until now my solution was resizing the image to 512 x 384, which seams to work... kinda`... but I am looking for another method, a real deinterlacing method to give me a better result, so I would really appreciate it if you could help me.

[bloodem]

well, after a lot of research I realized that, unfortunately, there isn't a satisfying method for deinterlacing. Every method has disadvantages so now I understand that neuron2 was right.... there is no "best" (at least in this case). But I opted for the "SeparateFields"/Bob method even though I hate the fact that the original 576 vertical resolution is reduced to only 288 and that the video is now at 50 FPS instead of it's natural 25 FPS. This method seams to work best for me (for XviD encodes)... but I guess from now on, at least for important recordings I'll use MPEG-2 encoding for DVDs.

[bb]

Windows Media Player is set to display DV in reduced resolution by default. That's probably the reason why you didn't see the interlacing lines in the first place. VirtualDub shows the lines as they are - that's what your video looks like when shown on a progressive display!

If you decide to encode to XviD, then you may either choose to deinterlace, or to encode in interlaced mode. For DVD MPEG-2 you should keep the video interlaced, and make sure you don't get trapped with the bff / tff issue.

bb

[bloodem]

well, it looks like I did get trapped with the bff/tff issue in CCE. I tried encoding a small 200 MB DV and there are parts of the video where interlacing is pretty obvious. I tried setting top field first offset to 0, then to 1, then bottom field first set to 0, 1 but the video still has interlacing artifacts. what should I do?

[Boulder]

How did you check the results?

Try with "Output top field first stream" unchecked and Offset line at 0. It ensures BFF encoding.

[bloodem]

i tried everything but the interlacing after encoding in CCE is still obvious. :confused:

[Boulder]

As I asked : how did you check the results?

[bloodem]

hmm... I didn't check results with anything.... :confused:
I just watched the m2v file after encoding and noticed the very obvious interlacing. What do you mean "checking results". Is there a program to do so?

[Boulder]

When you view the file on your computer, you naturally see the combing because your display is progressive. When you view the clip on your regular TV, no combing will be visible.

[bloodem]

oh.... I don't want to see it on a standalone player. I want to see it on my computer :( So... I must deinterlace, right? I also have problems with deinterlacing. I use the "separatefields", "field bob" method, to encode in xvid but there are some problems:
1. the vertical resolution is cut in half.
2. the fps goes from 25 to 50 fps
3. enormous file sizes. (for a 40 minute clip about 3.5 GB to achieve optimal video quality)

Is there any way to deinterlace without having all these problems?

[Boulder]

There are numerous deinterlacers such as LeakKernelDeint, TDeint etc.

Alternatively you can encode as interlaced XviD and deinterlace during playback with ffdshow.

[flood555]

I'm still looking for "my best" deinterlace method.Try:
TDeint(mode=0,order=0,field=1,type=3,tryWeave=true)

[bloodem]

Tdeint is a very good deinterlacer. thanks... the only problem is the jerky playback....
could anyway tell me how would a separatefields/fieldbob script for CCE sound like? Also, would the resulting 50 FPS video affect the DVD playback?

[Boulder]

If you want to watch the video on a standalone DVD player, encode it as I said earlier. You don't need any deinterlacing. If you want to watch it on the PC only, either a) encode as interlaced and deinterlace during playback or b) deinterlace and encode as progressive.

Deinterlacing causes a loss of motion smoothness, there's no way around that.

[bloodem]

yeah but deinterlacing with the separatefields method keeps the smoothness, the only problem is that it goes from 25 fps to 50 fps and the resolution is cut in half. the quality loss isn`t really noticeable though... So, how would an avisynth script for CCE, using the separatefields/fieldbob method sound like?

* I want to watch the DVD on my computer, so there's no way I want to leave the video interlaced.

[Boulder]

Why don't you encode it as interlaced and enable deinterlacing in your DVD player program..I think any decent program should have at least bob-deinterlacing included.

I'm quite sure you can't even author a 50fps video on a DVD.

[bloodem]

damn.... why can't they just make a progressive recording video camera? :D
yeah... you are right.... a DVD couldn't possibly handle 50 FPS. Uhm... I guess I'll just stick to XviD for now... but it kills me to see 3 GB avi files for a 40 minute clip :(

[bb]

File size depends on the bitrate you choose. You may compress your 40 minutes clip to much smaller sizes, like 700 MB to fit on a CD-R.

For progressive playback I'd deinterlace the video, because this way you can use better deinterlacing methods than the realtime ones used during playback.

By the way: There are progressive scan camcorders available.

bb

[Boulder]

For progressive playback I'd deinterlace the video, because this way you can use better deinterlacing methods than the realtime ones used during playback.

I'd say LeakKernelBob in ffdshow is quite good for smooth playback of interlaced stuff on your PC, definitely worth trying out.

[bloodem]

File size depends on the bitrate you choose. You may compress your 40 minutes clip to much smaller sizes, like 700 MB to fit on a CD-R.
bb

after first pass encoding, I checked the video.stats with StatsReader and the estimated size was 4000 MB. If I compress my 40 minute clip to a 700 MB size the quality will be very very very poor. Only a 2000+ MB file can maintain a good quality for the clip. (I guess it's because of the 50FPS frame rate I get these huge file sizes)

[smok3]

damn.... why can't they just make a progressive recording video camera? :D


they do, http://www.adamwilt.com/24p/ - iam working with this one (pal version) for some time now.
just those are not in $1000 range.

p.s. and yes, for interlaced stuff mpeg2 (i use HC) is still the easiest option, no deinterlacer before encoding, just make sure to clicky the correct field order.

about deinterlacers, there is idiotproof pal deinterlacer described in this thread:
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=110582

[theReal]

Originally Posted by bloodem
damn.... why can't they just make a progressive recording video camera?

they do, http://www.adamwilt.com/24p/ - iam working with this one (pal version) for some time now.
just those are not in $1000 range.


Good camera, we have one of these at work, too - but when you use the progressive mode you record 25 pictures per second and you don't have the usual motion fluidity in the first place. It gives your shots a film look - but because you're shooting with 1/3" chips on a small camera the film look won't be Hollywood film but more like 70's news film... unless of course you light your scenes very well and do a good postproduction job.

When I want DV video deinterlaced I always use Decomb, either with "fielddeinterlace()" or "fielddeinterlace(blend=false)".
It's pretty easy and I like the results.

[Blue_MiSfit]

they do, http://www.adamwilt.com/24p/ - iam working with this one (pal version) for some time now.
just those are not in $1000 range.

p.s. and yes, for interlaced stuff mpeg2 (i use HC) is still the easiest option, no deinterlacer before encoding, just make sure to clicky the correct field order.

about deinterlacers, there is idiotproof pal deinterlacer described in this thread:
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=110582

I work with a DVX-100, which does 30p or 24p. Still, the files it spits out are still 60i NTSC DV, but the "true" data is 24p. You have to process the video a lot to get the real 24p.

Also, it suffers from a lack of auto-focus in 24p, and lacks a good LCD to focus. Devastating! Anyway I'm OT... Sorry..

Yeah.. I reccommend encoding interlaced if you can, and deinterlacing on playback.

~MiSfit

[smok3]

TheReal, true, with such small chips you cant really mimic film look (you would have to use some DOF converter like 'Redrock M2 lens adapter'), but at least with pal version, postproduction for tv is easy.

Blue_MiSfit, same for pal version, when you are in f5/f6 modes autofocus is turned off.

and lacks a good LCD to focus yes, that is mayor problem, however i learned how to do it at least in studio-like enviroment when lcd is in dark place.

[bloodem]

When I want DV video deinterlaced I always use Decomb, either with "fielddeinterlace()" or "fielddeinterlace(blend=false)".
It's pretty easy and I like the results.


what's the video like after using this method? 25 FPS or 50 fps? what about resolution? is the vertical resolution reduced to 288?

[Boulder]

It will be the same as with any regular deinterlacer. Motion will not be as smooth as it used to be if that's what you worry about.

[bloodem]

yeah.... that's what worries me. So the only method which keeps the motion smoothness is the one with SeparateFields... I guess I'll stick with this one.

[henryho_hk]

Then you should try MVBob().

[Boulder]

SeparateFields is not a deinterlacer. Have you tested encoding it as interlaced and deinterlacing during playback? Using a bob-deinterlacer will keep the motion smooth.

[bloodem]

When using SeparateFields() the fields are separated leaving you with only half the vertical resolution, but the interlacing is removed 100%. then I apply FieldBob in virtual dub to make the bobbing disappear, and then resize the image to 576 x 432. I'm actually quite happy with the results, and the smoothness remains the same. I also tried Bob() in AviSynth, but i heard there are some problems with it...

[Boulder]

You still didn't answer my question : did you try encoding as interlaced and deinterlacing during playback? The program you use to play the DVDs should have an option to do that.

[bb]

SeparateFields alone suffers from the fact that there is a one line displacement between every other field.

bb

[bloodem]

SeparateFields alone suffers from the fact that there is a one line displacement between every other field.

bb

so what would you suggest? using Bob() with avisynth?



@boulder: I use Intervideo WinDVD 4, and frankly, I didn't find an option to deinterlace.

[Boulder]

Isn't there any deinterlacing options in the Video settings? Media Player Classic can also play DVDs and it includes a bob-deinterlacer IIRC.

Even if you used XviD, you could encode as interlaced and then use ffdshow for decoding and use LeakKernelBob to get 50fps playback rate at full height.

[bloodem]

I don't know... considering that I decided never to transfer these clips to DVD, I really really want to have a deinterlaced XviD file (I also hate installing other codecs besides xvid, divx 5.21, h264, ac3 filter). On the other hand, Media Player Classic is a very good player, I use it to watch XviD/DivX files, but I never liked the way it handles DVDs (sometimes I even have trouble pressing the play button of a certain DVD using mpclassic). So, having said that, straight deinterlacing is the only option for me. As I said, I like having a smooth motion, so 50 FPS is the only option for me; the thing is... I don`t know what's the proper method. Until now I used SeparateFields() in AviSynth to load the DV file, then applied the FieldBob filter in virtual dub. I know that there's another option: using Bob in AviSynth, but I read somewhere that there are certain problems with Bob in avisynth. Cound anyone clarify what method should I choose to get a proper result?

[Boulder]

I don't know what the problem with Bob might be.

If you want to have 50fps playback at full height, you must use a bobber. SecureDeint that is in the MVBob package might be suitable.

[bloodem]

well, yeah boulder, full height would be perfect but as I understand, bob deinterlacers that leave the video at full height don`t actually leave it at full height but rather, what they do, is duplicate a certain field to achieve the full height again. is this correct?

edit: I searched for info regarding this mvbob and everyone thinks it's the best deinterlacer out there... I definitely have to try it!

[bloodem]

I can't figure out how to make mvbob work. I downloaded the mvbob pack, i extracted all files to C:\Program Files\AviSynth 2.5\plugins\ and then made the following script:

import("C:\Program Files\AviSynth 2.5\plugins\mvbob.avs")
AVISource("D:\a.avi")
mvbob()

but when I try to load the script I get this error message: "script error, there is no function named merge". Am I doing something wrong?

[Boulder]

Extract the contents of the mvbob.rar package to your plugins folder. When you import the script, it should automatically load the needed plugins.

[bloodem]

like I said in my previous post, that's exactly what I did and it doesn't work :(

[Boulder]

Check from mvbob.avs which plugins you must have in your plugins folder and see that they are there. The LoadPlugin lines are at the end of the script file IIRC.

[smok3]

you have to rename text files ending with avs to avsi if you need to load those automagically (those are functions). (Like rename mvbob.avs to mvbob.avsi)

p.s. never mind, i see you are allready importing mvbob.avs explicitely.

[bloodem]

Check from mvbob.avs which plugins you must have in your plugins folder and see that they are there. The LoadPlugin lines are at the end of the script file IIRC.

I checked, all those plugins are THERE, in the same directory as mvbob.avs. I can't understand why the error..

"Avisynth open failure
There is no function named "merge"
mvbob.avs line 95
mvbob.avs line 193"

What "merge" function is he talking about?

[Boulder]

IIRC it's in Masktools v1.5.x.

EDIT: or you can use this version of MVBob which is for MaskTools v2 : http://foxyshadis.slightlydark.com/random/mvbob.avs

[smok3]

try to load plugins explicitely as well and see what happens....

[bloodem]

IIRC it's in Masktools v1.5.x.

EDIT: or you can use this version of MVBob which is for MaskTools v2 : http://foxyshadis.slightlydark.com/random/mvbob.avs

I used this mvbob script and now i get another error message:

"there is no function named mt_motion"

@smok3: I already tried loading all plugins manually and it doesn't work either.

isn't there a complete mvbob package that actually works?

[smok3]

try http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=821362#post821362
or my mirror:
http://somestuff.org/avs/mvbob.rar (right click and save as)

[bloodem]

I downloaded your package and I get the exact same error:
"there is no function named "merge" (mvbob.avs lines 95 and 193)"

what's happening? :(

[Boulder]

Post the contents (a screenshot for example) of your plugins folder.

[bloodem]

I now extracted everything in avisynth/plugins/mvbob, but it still doesn't work.

Here's the folder's pic:

http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/9355/file0001pm9.th.jpg (http://img206.imageshack.us/my.php?image=file0001pm9.jpg)

and here's the error's pic:

http://img169.imageshack.us/img169/1531/file0002jc6.th.jpg (http://img169.imageshack.us/my.php?image=file0002jc6.jpg)

and my avisynth script is this:

import("C:\Program Files\AviSynth 2.5\plugins\mvbob\mvbob.avs")
AVISource("D:\a.avi")
mvbob()

[Boulder]

Empty your plugins folder completely and then extract the contents of mvbob.rar there. Import the script and see if it works.

[bloodem]

I already did that like.... 3 times now.... :(

is it maybe the fact that i use virtualdubmod? maybe it only works with virtual dub...

[Boulder]

Take this script : http://foxyshadis.slightlydark.com/random/mvbob.avs and this Masktools v2 : http://manao4.free.fr/masktools-v2.0a30.zip . Extract the mvbob stuff into its own directory (don't even put it under the plugins folder, try elsewhere as well) and extract the mt_masktools.dll file from the MaskTools package into your plugins folder.

The two error messages you have received have both said that you don't have MaskTools v1.5.x or MaskTools v2 alpha loaded (depending on the mvbob.avs you tried to import).

[bloodem]

i did everything you said and now I get another error message: "there is no function named mt_motion"

PS: because i got this error message, I extracted in the same directory all those directories found in the masktools 2.0 package and I STILL get the "no mt_motion function" message.

[Boulder]

mt_motion, like all those mt_xxx functions, is in mt_masktools.dll as well. There's no need to extract any other files than mt_masktools.dll from the package, the rest are just source files and documentation.

I'm kind of stumped though. You could try reinstalling Avisynth and see if that fixes things - by the way, which version do you use (create a script with Version() only in it and open in a media player or VDub).

[bloodem]

the avisynth version is:

2.55 build september 1, 2004

[Boulder]

You should upgrade, it may be that MaskTools v2 won't work on such an old version.

[bloodem]

i'll try avisynth 2.5.7 alpha 3... is this the latest version?

[bloodem]

never mind... I installed it and now it works perfectly! (the only error I got was that the video was supposed to be YUY2). Thanks a lot for your help! By the way, does converting to YUY2 affect the video in any way?

PS: encoding with mvbob is a b*tch, only 2 fps on my Athlon 64 3500+. I guess I'll have to get me a Core2 Duo soon. :)

[Boulder]

MVBob should accept YV12 data as well..what is the original colorspace, is it RGB for some reason? Use Info() in the script after you have loaded the source to check.

[bloodem]

Colorspace: rgb24
So if I convert, is there any quality loss?

[Boulder]

I'd install Cedocida (see the sticky thread) and set it to output YV12 (MPEG2 interlaced as the sampling).

[bloodem]

I don't know... I encoded using ConvertToYUY2 and I didn't see any problems... BTW, this mvbob is INCREDIBLE! A true deinterlacer!

[Boulder]

With Cedocida, the quality will be better and processing is faster as well. Still, to each his own.

[bloodem]

I tried Cedocida, it is faster, but I honestly liked better the ConvertToYUV2 results (with the PANASONIC codec). (There are some unusual shadows with Cedocida in certain parts of the movie)

[Boulder]

Show the shadowing artifacts with a screenshot (original, Cedocida and Panasonic from the same frame), if there is a problem, it should be corrected by the author of Cedocida. What YV12 chroma sampling option did you choose?

[bloodem]

hmm... I don't think I know how to select MPEG-2 interlaced... I didn't find a config panel. I just installed the codec and then opened the video in virtualdub, without using the ConvertToYUY2 command

[Boulder]

You can see the config when you start VDub, then go to Video->Compression. Choose Cedocida and then 'Configure'.

[bloodem]

yes, you were right... it's so much better with cedocida. thanks so much for your help! the quality is better and... well... the processing speed is better too (3-4 FPS) :) Like i said... I definitely need a Core 2 Duo, because with this speed it would take me 30 hours to encode 60 minutes of DV video.

[Boulder]

You could try SecureDeint() which is also in mvbob.avs. It's faster and very high quality as well.

[bloodem]

I tried SecureDeint() too. It's good, but not as good as mvbob() IMO

[bloodem]

one more thing.... what filter would you suggest to make the indoor grains disappear? I tried undot() but it doesn't really make any difference.

[Boulder]

I'd try DegrainMedian or MVDegrain (in the MVTools package).

[bloodem]

thank you. I'll give them a shot.