AVI -> DVD Compliant acceptable bitrate ?

[TigerLord]

I've got some .avi on my computer I would like on a DVD. The AVI uses a xVid codec at an approx. 907 bitrate. They're TV episodes, I'd like to put them on a DVD, either DL or noy.

Since there's no sense in coverting the mp3 audio track to AC3 I presume, I was wondering what kind of bitrate I should use to convert the avi to MPEG2 with CCE and how many passes for best quality?

Thank you!

[check]

The maximum bitrate for a DVD is 9.8mbits, but quite a few cheapy DVD players die before you get there. Most broadcast is done at around 6-8mbits in Australia (apart from SBS during the world cup! >:(), so you probably won't need it that high.
With passes, as always the more the merrier :)

[TigerLord]

Since I'd like to place as many episodes as possible on DVD, would you happen to know what kind of bitrate would be appropriate? As with everything there's always overkill, I would prefer not wasting 5 hours doing 8 passes when 6 would have given me the exact same result.

Thanks a lot :)

[check]

As to the bitrate of the video - there are practically an infinite amount of variables. The compressibility of the source, if it's animation or live action, the quality you will be happy with. I'd recommend you make up one test DVD of the same video in (say) 8,6,5,4,3 mbit variants and see which you are happy with.
As to the passes, no idea sorry, I don't go in for much mpeg2 encoding.

[Matthew]

Since there's no sense in coverting the mp3 audio track to AC3 I presume

You need to convert the mp3 track to either pcm, mp2, ac3 or dts. AC3 is my choice.

An objective measure of quality is provided in CCE SP. Look at the q values in the "advanced" window after vaf creation (the first pass). You can use that information to devise a rule of thumb for yourself.

I'd say that 3-4 42-45 min episodes per DVD-R would be appropriate.

[check]

actually some DVD players will play mp3, you might need to ensure it's being muxed in as mp2 though. If not, I would go for mp2 at 256kbits for re-encoding from a 128 source - going to 192 ac3 would lose too much audio data for me.

[setarip_old]

@TigerLord

Please clarify - What video format do you intend to create?Do you want to create a compliant DVD (.IFOs, .BUPs, and .VOBs) or something else? If "something else", what format?

[TigerLord]

I'm looking at creating a standard compliant NTSC DVD...

I was going to do a fancy menu with DVDLab Pro (can't afford Scenarist :(( and place as many episodes I can on the DVD. For this I need to re-encode them from .AVI-> .m2v or VOB probably...

Which is why Id like to know what kind of bitrate I should allow for each episodes to have the best quality per episode without overkilling it. There's no sence in having each episode take 3GB when at 1GB the quality would be the same since it's a re-encode ...

[setarip_old]

One set of procedures (other posters may/probably will suggest alternative methods) would be:

1) Use "TMPGEnc" (or "TMPGEncPlus") to convert each of the .AVIs
(DivX-compressed or otherwise) to compliant MPEG2-for-DVD format - Use "TMPGEnc's" DVD wizard/template to accomplish this

2) Use "TMPGEnc DVD Author" v.1.6 (a different program than
"TMPGEnc") to easily create the required additional DVD files and structure (and chapters and a menu, if you wish)
You can obtain a FULLY functional free 30 day trial version of this commercial program at:

http://tmpgenc.pegasys-inc.com/en/download/tda16.html

**If the combined filesize of the DVD "package" written to your hard drive is greater than 4.37Gb, use DVD Shrink (or similar) to compress

If your O/S is either Win2000 or WinXP, TMPGEnc DVD Author can also burn your DVD. Otherwise, use NERO to burn in "DVD-Video" mode
(As an alternative to "TMPGEnc DVD Author", you could use "DVDLab")


Let us know of your success ;>}

[manono]

Hi-

Which is why Id like to know what kind of bitrate I should allow for each episodes to have the best quality per episode without overkilling it.

One rule of thumb when converting AVI to DVD is 3-4 times the AVI bitrate. Test out maybe 3000-3500, and then do as Matthew suggested. Check the average Q in CCE, if you're using that, or the Q-Level of an MPV, M2V, or VOB in Bitrate Viewer. If you get average values of maybe 3-6, you're OK. Down below maybe 2, and the bitrate is too high. Up above maybe 8 or 9, you can use a higher bitrate.

[jshumate]

As a general rule, there is little to be gained by doing more than 3 passes with CCE. Even Doom9 himself thinks so. I have known of people to use more than 3 passes, but they were usually doing something very unusual, like encoding a movie to SVCD to fit on a single CD-R.

If you have an AMD CPU, you should not let CCE touch your audio as some versions of CCE crashed hard on AMD systems if they touched audio. CCE isn't real good at converting audio anyway, so it's best to do that through some other program such as BeSweet.

Yes, Scenarist is ridiculously expensive, which is why most of the people who have it who don't do video work for a living have (wink wink) "evaluation" copies that just happen to not expire. Scenarist contains no menu making tools of any kind, so even if you had a copy, it wouldn't help you to make a menu. You have to make menus through some other means and then link those into your Scenarist project.

[TigerLord]

Many many thanks for the tips, you guys are so great and helpful ! Much appreciated :)

As a matter of fact I do use CCE, a friend of mine at university does video editing for a living and had a license for CCE SP 2.2. He e-mailed them to ask if loaning the license a family member (I'm sort of his brother :D ) and they said yes, so I was quite happy. He wasn't sure about my question though as dvd authoring isn't exactly his area of expertise, I'm glad I have you guys :D

He does have a Scenarist license, but the program is just too expansive for me and I wouldn't feel comfortable asking him to loan it to me, and from what i've heard, it is extremely complicated.

Since I do have CCE I prefer to use it than TMPGENC as CCE is so much faster. I'll try a 3 passes and won,t touch the sound as I have an OC'ed AMD cpu and it did crash once, and hard... plus encoding takes 100% of cpu so no sensein rendering it unstable for nothing, Besweet is in my opinion an excellent audio encoder.

I'll try a 3 passes in CCE with 3-4 times the bitrate and look what it turns out to be...

Do you guys recommend I keep the mp3 audio tracks and resample them at 48khz (I dont think thats what theyre running at now) or do a mp3 -> AC3 ? I don,t really see the advantage in doing this though ...
Thanks ! :)

[manono]

As Matthew mentioned, MP3 isn't DVD compliant. I'd recommend AC3 at 48khz, especially if you're in NTSC land.

[TigerLord]

Thanks to you guys I converted the mp3 track to AC3 using Besweet and the .mpv using CCE (super fast, 1 hour for 3 passes). The avg Q level as shown by screenshot (#4) is 4.77 so I think I'm quite ok.

Unfortunately, my first try (I checked resized) failed as the image was all distorted. But if I dont check it and keep a 16:9 ratio some black bars appearon the SIDE of the video which is a big problem, and I guess cropping it in TMPGENC editor will mess the resolution and wont be standard compliant...

I attached screenshots of my CCE settings and a screeshot of BSplayer (the blue is the image)...

Any idea? Original video 640x352 @ 25 fps

[setarip_old]

@TigerLord

You might want to try my earlier suggestion - sometimes slower is better ;>}

(If you decide to do so, make certain that under the "Audio" tab, it's set to 48,000Hz)

[TigerLord]

CCE isnt only about speed I think, and audio wasn't even the problem... CCE is quality too, and I'd really like it if I could find a fix...

I'll try your suggestion though to keep an open-mind and let you know...

[manono]

Hi-

I'd really like it if I could find a fix...

Can't see the pics until a mod from this forum approves them. You could always upload them to ImageShack.

I don't know what your problem is, as you haven't provided near enough information. What are you doing, just dropping the AVI into CCE? Bad move, if true. Frameserve using an AviSynth script file. Or, if you absolutely have to, frameserve through VDub(Mod). The script (for 16:9 encoding using your 640x352 AVI as a source) can be as simple as:

AVISource("C:\Path\To\Movie.avi")
LanczosResize(720,576)#if for PAL

You can use FitCD to give you the scripts. You can find a guide here:

http://forum.videohelp.com/viewtopic.php?p=1487285&highlight=fitcd#1487285

If encoding using CCE, check YUY2-Output in the lower right corner. I don't recommend checking blocks overscan unless you have burned in subs being cut off by your TV set's overscan.

[TigerLord]

You can find the pics here:
http://www.nightwishonline.com/images/Untitled-2.gif
http://www.nightwishonline.com/images/Untitled-3.gif
http://www.nightwishonline.com/images/Untitled-4.gif

And my source runs at 25fps so is PAL, so I need a NTSC standard compliant ... so I have to change the framerate to 23 and use pulldown ...

[manono]

If it's progressive, then you should be using Zigzag scanning order.

The video in the box, with black around on all 4 sides will wind up with bad aspect ratio. All it did was to add black to change from 640x352 to 720x480. That's because you checked "For DVD" up at the top, without also checking the "Resize" box. Your AVI is 1:1 and you're encoding for 16:9. You want to also check the Resize box.

I repeat that it's better to feed it an AviSynth script file with the resizing having already been done. Then you can also uncheck the "For DVD" box at the top.

Are you also slowing down the audio? If not, you'll have audio synch issues when done. You might consider keeping it at 25fps and then using DGPulldown set for 25->29.97fps. That way you can keep the audio without stretching it. You'll encode for 25fps, only resizing for NTSC.

[TigerLord]

It seems my tests with CCE were succesful. Using an AVS script, I resized to 720x480 but kept the 25fps framerate. The m2v is of nice quality with 3 passes @ 3000, with a Q of 6.5

However my problem now lie with the audio... I tried to extract as a .wav with Nandub , but it wont let me. And if I extract the mp3 and try mp3 -> AC3 with Besweet its totally unsynched or gives errors...

Any tips here?

[setarip_old]

I resized to 720x480 but kept the 25fps framerate.This will not result in a compliant NTSC DVD "package" (Resolution is NTSC-compliant, while fps is PAL-compliant)...

[TigerLord]

I was following Manono's advice unless I misunderstood whathe meant...

"Are you also slowing down the audio? If not, you'll have audio synch issues when done. You might consider keeping it at 25fps and then using DGPulldown set for 25->29.97fps. That way you can keep the audio without stretching it. You'll encode for 25fps, only resizing for NTSC."

Thanks for your help in advance :)

PS. I tried with TMPGENC as you suggested, and although it did the audio for me, the encodingtook 4 hours vs 1h20min for CCE, and quality is also superior with CCE.

Any way to treat audio with TMPGENC only?

[manono]

setarip_old-

It's perfectly compliant. The "base" framerate is 25fps, but pulldown is applied to output 29.97fps. I and hundreds of people do that all the time. Here's the big thread about it:

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=88031&highlight=DGPulldown

[manono]

TigerLord-

Sorry, but audio's not really my specialty. Maybe try and get the WAV audio from VDubMod.

[Matthew]

It's possible that the mp3 audio is damaged.

If you extract the audio with nandub ("save wav" and rename to .mp3), and run it through besplit/bespliced, you can tell whether this is the case. The log will say "stream error".

It would be unusual for mp3 audio to be damaged (although some tracks have an audio delay in the form of initial junk bytes).

[jesus2099]

Here is a small graph that may help to choose a correct bitrate (english (http://www.mediachance.com/dvdlab/tutorial/bitrate.html)/french (http://shamo.fr/jesus2099/blog/2005/08/comment-choisir-le-bitrate-idal-pour.html)).