Howto HDV (1440x1080i@29,97) to WMV9/VC1

[mikeathome]

Hi,

reading thru various boards I am right now completely lost. Here's the prob:

Have a nice Sony HC3 HDV Cam which produces:
- MPEG2 Transport Streams 1440x1080i@29,97fps, anamorph (16:9), TFF, 25Mbps
(some sample files here (not mine): http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=66319
use the house_sparrow.m2t http://www.realm.cc/upload/disjecta/house_sparrow.m2t in case you want to help me/us)
- player Transgear DVX700 can not handle the 25Mbps w/o stuttering from time to time, (not really a surprise)
- I have a real 720p Samsung DLP connected to it via DVI-D and I am able to play WMV9 @ 720p@59,94 w/o hassle (DLP supports upto 1920x1080i)

Q: Howto get the cam footage into
a) WMV/VC1 HD - 720p@59,94
b) WMV/VC1 HD - 1080i@29,97

at bitrates ~15Mbps (an amount the Transgear can handle) and preserve the anamorph character.

My procedure so far:
- take the .m2t into DGIndex (Detect PIDs finds you the Video and Audio ;-)
- alternative you can run it thru MPEG2VCR 3.14 (new version from Dec 2005!) to cut and save as MPEG2 PS
- demux all Audio, save project
- take Audio to WinAMP, diskwriter plugin, resample to 44kHz stereo (needed by Transgear)
- create .avs
LoadPlugin("C:\Programme\GordianKnot\DGMPGDec\DGDecode.DLL")
Loadplugin("C:\Programme\AviSynth 2.5\plugins\decomb.dll")
a = MPEG2Source("sparrow.d2v").FieldDeinterlace().BicubicResize(1280,720)
b = WavSource("sparrow.wav").DelayAudio(-0.246) # delay reportet by DGIndex
AudioDub(a,b)

- and take to WMNic's Encoder
Settings:
.Use Audio
.Windows Media Audio 9
.192 kbps, 44 kHz, stereo, VBR
.%PATH%avs
.%PATH%wmv
.Use Video
.Advanced Options - untouched
.Windows Media Video 9
.Bitrate 10000000
.Quality 100
.FPS 29.97
.Secs/KF 4
.Use Input Size
.USE VBR
.Constrained
.VBR Quality 100
.Max Bitrate 15000000
.Use MultiPass Encoding

Ok, delivers a reasonable good output. What would you do different?

I know quite some people who are interested in an effective procedure so we all would highly appreciate a guidance.

Thanks folks,
mike

[eb]

My advice:
With EditGraph split and dump to separate audio and video files.
ftp://www.eb.enterpol.pl:eb@www.eb.enterpol.pl/grebe.JPG
Load both files to VirtualDubMode.
Set convertion parameters to audio and video as your wish.
Here is grebe.m2t 60MB sample converted to 25MB Xvid 1280x720 29.97 with audio 44100.
sample (ftp://www.eb.enterpol.pl:eb@www.eb.enterpol.pl/grebeXvid+.avi)

eb

EDIT: another sample (ftp://www.eb.enterpol.pl:eb@www.eb.enterpol.pl/20060514-160812C01.avi)

house_sparrow (ftp://www.eb.enterpol.pl:eb@www.eb.enterpol.pl/house_sparrow.avi)

[mikeathome]

My advice:
With EditGraph split and dump to separate audio and video files.
ftp://www.eb.enterpol.pl:eb@www.eb.enterpol.pl/grebe.JPG
Load both files to VirtualDubMode.
Set convertion parameters to audio and video as your wish.
Here is grebe.m2t 60MB sample converted to 25MB Xvid 1280x720 29.97 with audio 44100.
sample (ftp://www.eb.enterpol.pl:eb@www.eb.enterpol.pl/grebeXvid+.avi)

eb

EDIT: another sample (ftp://www.eb.enterpol.pl:eb@www.eb.enterpol.pl/20060514-160812C01.avi)
house_sparrow (ftp://www.eb.enterpol.pl:eb@www.eb.enterpol.pl/house_sparrow.avi)

Hi,
thanks!

Why is your GraphEdit filter graph showing v:v.asf and your audio:a.mp3, .m2t is MPG-2 TS, please be a bit more specific and can you put a few screenshots of your XVid settings on your ftp. Thought already about XVid but need to ensure that the Transgear will 'eat' it. Will run a test with your samples and let you know...

Add:
GMC is not supported by the Transgear, the house_sparrow looks nice, what are the settings?

cu, mike

[diogen]

...Q: Howto get the cam footage into
a) WMV/VC1 HD - 720p@59,94
b) WMV/VC1 HD - 1080i@29,97
If you are happy with WMA (Pro, if 5.1), have you tried to just open the file in WME?
If you have Elecard codecs, it should work.

If you want to keep it interlaced (probably a good idea), try the latest MS' codec (in WMP11 beta)
or wait for the Studio beta.

Diogen.

[SeeMoreDigital]

If your MPEG-2 1440x1080 MPEG-2 sources are pure interlaced, have you considered generating to interlaced MPEG-4 instead?

Your player is fitted with Sigma's EM8620L chip-set which copes very well with interlaced MPEG-4 encodes!

XviD's encoder offers an interlaced encoding option, so provided you maintain the same resolution as your source and add 16:9 DAR signalling (to the MPEG-4 bit-stream) you should be fine ;)

[SeeMoreDigital]

Okay, I've just converted the "house-sparrow" 1440x1080 MPEG-2 source to an 1440x1088 MPEG-4 SP encode.

How does it look (http://homepage.ntlworld.com/seemoredigital/Temp_Test_Files/house_sparrow_MPEG-4@6k.7z) and play on your Transgear DVX700? It works fine on my Zensonic Z500 ;)

EDIT: By-the-way, the "house-sparrow" source contains "progressive" frames.


Cheers

[eb]

ftp://www.eb.enterpol.pl:eb@www.eb.enterpol.pl/grebe.JPG

This two dump filters you can name as you wish.

Best way to start with Xvid settings is to start with defoult settings ie. Q=4.
With my computer Athlon 1.8 GHz 1280x720 is highest where I am not loosing frames when playback.

@mikeathome,
Could you present the link to this sample (ftp://www.eb.enterpol.pl:eb@www.eb.enterpol.pl/20060514-160812C01+.avi) on DVinfo forum.

This is electrowindmill footage interlaced as original 78MB, squeezed to 3.8 MB 1280x720 progressiv Xvid.

eb

EDIT: http://img119.imageshack.us/img119/5471/m9ew.jpg

[mikeathome]

If your MPEG-2 1440x1080 MPEG-2 sources are pure interlaced, have you considered generating to interlaced MPEG-4 instead?
Your player is fitted with Sigma's EM8620L chip-set which copes very well with interlaced MPEG-4 encodes!
XviD's encoder offers an interlaced encoding option, so provided you maintain the same resolution as your source and add 16:9 DAR signalling (to the MPEG-4 bit-stream) you should be fine ;)

Hi,

that's what I am looking for, don't wanna mess arround with the interlace, don't wanna resize if not needed for overall bitrate. Yes, it is possible, that the sample contains prog frames, was shot with a FX1, which I guess shots progressive, the consumer model HDR-HC3 shots only interlaced, will post a sample soon...

... AND will look at the XVid and let you know.

@eb
I am not a member of DVInfo forum, it's your achievement, guide the guys in the right direction, I am supporting (german DVDBoard ;-)

Thank you folks,
mike

P.S. Don't get too exited about soccer...

[zambelli]

Without digressing too much, if your goal is to encode 720p59.94, you shouldn't use this:
a = MPEG2Source("sparrow.d2v").FieldDeinterlace().BicubicResize(1280,720)
That gives you 29.97p output.

You'd be much better off using TDeint in bob mode and then resizing to 720p. That'll preserve the 59.94 framerate and probably be just as detailed.

As for encoding... If you want to encode to WMV, I recommend you encode to Advanced Profile using the beta codec. It supports interlaced encoding in case you want to keep 1080i, and you can optimize it far more than the old Main Profile codec. Check out the sticky thread in this forum for more WMV9 AP info.

[zambelli]

If your MPEG-2 1440x1080 MPEG-2 sources are pure interlaced, have you considered generating to interlaced MPEG-4 instead?
Your player is fitted with Sigma's EM8620L chip-set which copes very well with interlaced MPEG-4 encodes!
That chipset also supports WMV9/VC-1 decoding. Also, I was under the impression that it only supports 480i, but not 1080i. I could be wrong though, and I can't seem to find the spec sheet to confirm or deny this.

[Sagittaire]

That chipset also supports WMV9/VC-1 decoding. Also, I was under the impression that it only supports 480i, but not 1080i. I could be wrong though, and I can't seem to find the spec sheet to confirm or deny this.

No, Sigma's EM8620L chip-set support 1080p WMV9 encoding and certainely 1080i too (interlacing support for MPEG2 1080i)
http://www.divxtest.com/form/divxtest2_list.php?sort=note%20DESC,%20marque,%20nom

For example
http://www.divxtest.com/form/divxtest2_view.php?id_49=on

but it's true for all SMP with Sigma's EM8620L chip-set

[SeeMoreDigital]

Also, I was under the impression that it only supports 480i, but not 1080i. I could be wrong though, and I can't seem to find the spec sheet to confirm or deny this.Sigma's EM8620L chip-set is fitted in my Zensonic Z500. It's able to play MPEG-1, MPEG-2 and MPEG-4 at resolutions of up-to 1920x1088 pixels with progressive frames at up-to 30fps.

High bit-rate sources, such as MPEG-2 HDTV .TS files and those in your WMV HD Content Showcase need to be served using UPnP media serving software (I use TwonkyVision). But for everything else the SMB connection protocol works fine ;)

As a side note: If you guys want to show off WMV9/VC1 encoding capabilities, why do you offer samples at such high bit-rates? Why not offer some at much lower bit-rates, say 5Mbps?


Cheers

[zambelli]

As a side note: If you guys want to show off WMV9/VC1 encoding capabilities, why do you offer samples at such high bit-rates? Why not offer some at much lower bit-rates, say 5Mbps?
The concept of that showcase if fairly old: it's been around for probably over 3 years now. Back in the day it was more about showing off high-def and proving that it was possible to deliver and decode HD at reasonable bitrates on standard consumer PCs.
The codec team doesn't own the content hosted there, so we can't really tell them what to do. :) I've already complained once about the fact that Advanced Profile samples aren't even available for download from our own website. Everything up there is still MP@HL. :(

[crypto]

Just for the record. EM8620L equipped players don't play VC-1 encoded material. :( WMV3 however up to 1080p is ok. :)

[SeeMoreDigital]

Just for the record. EM8620L equipped players don't play VC-1 encoded material. :( WMV3 however up to 1080p is ok. :)I have not tried any VC-1 sources!

If you point me to some.... I'll give them a try :)

[crypto]

I have not tried any VC-1 sources!

If you point me to some.... I'll give them a try :)

Thanks for checking that. A sample is here: (2nd post, last link)

WMV9 VC-1 Advanced Profile Codec Released (http://dvbportal.dyn1.de/forum/index.php?board=7;action=display;threadid=642)

[SeeMoreDigital]

Bummer..... The VC-1 sample does not work.

Is it possible to cheat, and change the 4CC code from WVC1 to WMV3?


Cheers

[crypto]

Is it possible to cheat, and change the 4CC code from WVC1 to WMV3?
Nope, already tried that. In WMV there are multiple instances:

1. Stream Properties Object [2]

File Position 4580 ( 0x11E4 )
Object ID B7DC0791-A9B7-11CF-8EE6-00C00C205365
Object Size 151 ( 0x97 )

Stream Number 2
Version 1
Offset 0
Encrypted False
Security ID 0
Stream Type Specific
Stream Type Video Media
Window Width 1440
Window Height 816
Flags 2
Bitmap Info Header
biSize 62
Width 1440
Height 816
Planes 1
Bits 24
Compression TEXT: WVC1
0000: 57 56 43 31 WVC1
Image Size 0
X Pels / Meter 0
Y Pels / Meter 0
Colors Used 0
Colors Important 0
Extra Data Size 22
Extra Data 0000: 27 00 00 01 0F E3 BE 2C-F1 97 88 80 00 00 01 0E ' ,
0010: 10 44 B3 C6 5C 80 D \
Error Concealment
Strategy No Error Correction

2. Codec List Object

File Position 4769 ( 0x12A1 )
Object ID 86D15240-311D-11D0-A3A4-00A0C90348F6
Object Size 326 ( 0x146 )

Codec ID Reserved 2
Codecs
Name Description Type Format / FourCC Info Size Info
"Windows Media Audio 10 Professional" "VBR Quality 75, 48 kHz, 5.1 channel 24 bit 1-pass VBR" WMT_CODECINFO_AUDIO 354 2 0000: 62 01 b
"Windows Media Video 9 Advanced Profile" "" WMT_CODECINFO_VIDEO WVC1 4 TEXT: WVC1
0000: 57 56 43 31 WVC1

There are several other binary objects like "ASFLeakyBucketPairs".

My guess is, that VC-1 decoding is very different from WMV3 decoding.

[SeeMoreDigital]

My guess is, that VC-1 decoding is very different from WMV3 decoding.Gowd knows why they'd want to do this.... One would have thought VC-1 would have been a more open format.

Maybe Sigma could provide an update to their chip-sets via their SDK's?!


Cheers

[Sagittaire]

Sigma's EM8620L chip-set can't work with High Profil. Video stream must be Main Profil (VC1/WMV9 MP@HL compatibility).

Sigma's EM8620L chip-set can't work with WMA9 Pro too. Audio stream must be WMA9 Standard.

[zambelli]

SeeMoreDigital and Crypto, I think you guys have some confusion about the difference between WMV9 (WMV3) and VC-1. There is none. WMV3 is actually a subset of VC-1 - it's Simple and Main Profile only. WVC1 is Advanced Profile.

If Sigma is advertising VC-1 decoding, but is actually limited to Main Profile only, they really ought to clarify that. Much like "MPEG-4 decoding", it's rather ambiguous unless they specify which profiles are supported.

[SeeMoreDigital]

After reading various Sigma chip-set specs I've found the following: -

EM8620L chip-set supports, WMV9 MP@HL (720p).

EM8622L chip-set supports, WMV9 MP@HL (720p), VC-1 MP@HL (720p) and AP@L3 (720p)

SMP8634 chip-set supports, WMV9 MP@HL, VC-1 (SMPTE 421M) MP@HL and AP@L3

EDIT: MP@HL = Main Profile at High Level and AP@L3 = Advanced Profile at Level 3 - whatever Level 3 is?


Cheers

[Sagittaire]

After reading various Sigma chip-set specs I've found the following: -

EM8620L chip-set supports, WMV9 MP@HL (720p).

EM8622L chip-set supports, WMV9 MP@HL (720p), VC-1 MP@HL (720p), AP@L3 (720p)

SMP8634 chip-set supports, WMV9 MP@HL, SMPTE 421M (VC-1) MP@HL and AP@L3


Cheers

EM8620L support 1080p too for VC-1 MP and MPEG4 ASP ... and certainely EM8622L and SMP8634 too.

[mikeathome]

After reading various Sigma chip-set specs I've found the following: -

EM8620L chip-set supports, WMV9 MP@HL (720p).

EM8622L chip-set supports, WMV9 MP@HL (720p), VC-1 MP@HL (720p) and AP@L3 (720p)

SMP8634 chip-set supports, WMV9 MP@HL, VC-1 (SMPTE 421M) MP@HL and AP@L3

EDIT: MP@HL = Main Profile at High Level and AP@L3 = Advanced Profile at Level 3 - whatever Level 3 is?

Cheers

Hi,
I can confirm this, WMV9 1080i stutters, 720p plays fine, VC1 not tested yet.
MPEG4 (XVid) 1080i plays fine, although I got the impression the 720p (WMV9) looks better on the big screen. Maybe some tweaking necessary.

In the samples above, very first post, the sparrow in the green bush is truly interlaced, the one on the asphalt is not.

mike

[crypto]

I can confirm this, WMV9 1080i stutters, 720p plays fine, VC1 not tested yet.


WMV9 prior VC-1 does not know interlaced formats like 1080i,1080p however is supported and plays fine on the EM8620L.

[SeeMoreDigital]

In the samples above, very first post, the sparrow in the green bush is truly interlaced, the one on the asphalt is not....According to DGIndex, the "house_sparrow_bush.m2t" sample contains progressive frames too....


Cheers

[zambelli]

WMV9 prior VC-1 does not know interlaced formats like 1080i,1080p however is supported and plays fine on the EM8620L.
There was a 4:1:1 interlaced mode in WMV9 MP, but it's been deprecated now that AP has full interlaced support.

[sisman2000]

EDIT: MP@HL = Main Profile at High Level and AP@L3 = Advanced Profile at Level 3 - whatever Level 3 is?


Cheers

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VC1

[SeeMoreDigital]

Thanks for that: -

http://img114.imageshack.us/img114/1546/vc1bitratesandresolutions8qz.png


Cheers