dual layer burning issues

[berrick]

Hi everyone,

I have just started to try burning DL disks and i'm having a few problems. That is on the pioneer 111d single layer burn ok till the cows come home but every DL says it copied ok but when playing back it starts skipping and eventually stops some time after the DL break.

The dvd is rip to HD using DVDd in file mode, then use a combination of ifoedit, Pgcedit and VobBlanker before burning with Nero v7.0

I have read that nero isn't very good at burning DL is this still the case? also am unsure about LB i have assumed that Pgcedit leaves it as set in the original?

as always am gratefall for any assistance

[LIGHTNING UK!]

Maybe this guide (a few posts down the forum!!) will help?

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=96974

[ux-3]

Try playing it on the PC. Does it show the same symptoms?

[berrick]

Thanks for the reply LUK, i had read the info in the link before i posted (i do try and research b4 posting :) ), but i ended up with more questions then when i started :D .

I guess one of the main things i'm trying to work out is whether some hardware or media issue might be causing my problems hence asking if nero 7 was ok to use these days ie does it respet the layer break etc. Most of what i read implies not, but only seemed to mention older version of nero.

The other problems regarding how i read that post is down to the process i use when ripping and most likely due to a lack of understanding about the functionality of things like PgcEdit/VobBlanker etc.

I aways rip with DVDd in file mode then if i want to remove audio tracks use IfoEdit, next i use PgcEdit for the main mods like menu edits, inserting blank cells and navigation then VobBlanker to blank out any other stuff.

Generally with DL i chage very little but ultimately still use PgcEdit and VobBlanker and Nero.

My aim: i am trying to keep to a min the number of different packages and processes, and therefore reduce the number of dum ass question i post here LOL.

If the concensus from the main contributors of these forums is that i'm wasting my time currently trying to use nero and should get ImgBurn hooked up to PgcEdit then I will!

[LIGHTNING UK!]

To be honest, I've not actually tested Nero to see what it does with the layerbreak... I've never needed to.

Feel free to open up the disc in something like ImgBurn that'll tell you the physical placing of the layerbreak. Then do the same in IfoEdit or PgcEdit for the IFO layerbreak (do some calculations) and compare the two.

However, if it's just starting to skip and jump after the LB, it could just be a media / burn quality issue. You didn't mention drive / media names so it's all very much guess work on my part at the moment!

[berrick]

I was just going to edit my last post (as i've had time to think :eek: )

The LB isn't really an issue although i want to understand more about the impact the position has. From what i've seen so far the worst effect is that i got a slight "Hic up" at the layer break.

My main point i'm tryin to get answered is why upto the layer break it plays fine and then at sum point after it it screws up?

I did mention the drive in first post :p (hehe) but i will post again with more info.

Pioneer 111d (not the latest f/w, next step) only device on IDE chanel
Only use + media which is manufactured by mirror
Windows XP pro Version 5.1.2600 Service Pack 2 Build 2600
Processor x86 Family 15 Model 31 Stepping 0 AuthenticAMD ~2043 Mhz
Total Physical Memory 1,024.00 MB
Available Physical Memory 468.55 MB
Page File Space 2.40 GB

UX-3 ones i tried in the past played better if memory serves but still played up, this last one ended up in the bin as i vented my frustration on it! hehe

Standalone player is a Pioneer DV-626D not sure if they have issue with DL media, i beleive some stand alones do

[QueenMaro]

Skipping is usually an indication for media problems / bad burn quality (burner vs. dvd-media).

Btw. does somebody know how the data is arranged on DL-disks +R / -R. On single layer the data starts from the inside to the outer rim (and so does the first layer of DLs). But how ist the 2nd layer arranged inside out or outside in?

-> an 2nd layer outside in might explain your skipping as media are usually lower quality on the very outer zone...

Queen Maro

[Gehenna]

Skipping is usually an indication for media problems / bad burn quality (burner vs. dvd-media).


Try sacrificing one DL disc on proven software ..ie DVD Decrypter + Img burn (if its still skipping,then its media problem/burn speed>?)

Just use DVD Decrypter to rip to ISO/MD5 ,then burn straight to DL media with img burn

Just my 0.02$

[berrick]

One thing i would add to correct my earlier statement about LB is i have also read that the second layer cannot be larger than the first, so two points the LB can have major impact and 2nd i take that to indicate 2nd layer is outside in?

[r0lZ]

Yes, the 2nd layer is burned outside in. It's to minimize the time needed to swap layers. The starting position on the 2ne layer is exactly the same than the ending position on L0. This is also why you cannot put more data on L1 than on L0.

IMO, the problem with Nero (including Nero 7) is that it doesn't respect your will. It changes the layer break position, and you can't be sure it will put it at a place where it is almost unnoticeable. With PgcEdit+ImgBurn, you can select exactly at which cell you want the layer break.

Anyway, if, as you said, the pauses and skips are AFTER the layer break (and not exactly when the player switches from L0 to L1), then the LB position is not the problem. The reflectivity of L1 is largely inferior than the reflectivity of L0, and it's probably sufficient to cause the problems on your standalone. I have exactly the same problem with my old Sony.
Try to use only excellent media. Currently, only Verbatim DL-DVD+Rs are good enough. Avoid DL-DVD-Rs, as they are not really compatible with the DVD-Video standard.

[ux-3]

As I reported before, Nero does not respect the layer break. The result played fine on a software DVD player, but failed to work on a stand alone. Burning with IMGburn created a flawless disk from the very same files. I verifyed that nero changed the layerbreak, but the hardware player obeyed the instructions from the IFOs and thereby skipped about 4 minutes flat.
Your problems sounds more like bad media. Still, I wouldn't use nero on good media either.

[berrick]

Evening all,

many thanks to you all for your replies and advice.
Just to clarify in case any one else stumbles across this post trying to answer there problems:

The LB is not the issue (i my case), i generally see a very small delay, hic up whatever at this point but the dvd continues.

The issue with play back is sometime after the LB and as discussed is most likely down to poor media or possibly firmware issue in the dvd recorder or standalone (i know my recorder is not upto date)

Nero regardless of version, to date, is unreliable burning DL for the reasons mentioned.

I'm going to try using IMGburn with my current media, then update DVD recorder firmware if still having problems.

Now though, i have more quesetions to answer like how do i find if/where the layer break is on original, the best place to put layer etc ;)

[r0lZ]

If the IFOs are still unmodified (in particular, if the seamless flag that is normally clear on the layer break is still clear) PgcEdit should select the original cell by default. Theoretically, the original cell has a new VOB ID. In the GUI, you can also verify if the VOB ID changes at the LB cell.

When PgcEdit can't find the original cell, it will select the best one, according to its internal rules. In this case, it is better to verify if you like the default position.

[berrick]

rolZ,

A quick check of the last dvd i used and all the copies at various stages of changes on my hard drive all show the LB flag set at the same cell for the main movie, which in this case was 14. However the LB flag was also present for cell 1 although it was grayed out.

I also checked another film which also had the LB flag for cell 1 grayed out and two other LB flags set?

What is the meaning of the grayed out LB flag at cell 1 and i assume that multiple LB flags are not a good thing?

[r0lZ]

Use search. This question has already been answered many times.

[ux-3]

I will recycle this thread for a problem of my own. I here have a movie that is originally split in two DVD-9. I'd like to have it all on one DVD+R DL, so I am going to follow the following plan: I'll reauthor using Recode2 to a DVD-9, joining the two individual parts. This I can handle (I think...). Then I have to get it onto DVD+DL, which I want to accomplish without another coaster. So I am a bit sceptical to use the burn engine provided by recode2 (nero inside?). I have no clue if the reauthored DVD will have a layerbreak set (properly).

So I was thinking to open this project with PGCEdit and burn from there, hoping that PGC edit will insert or change the layer break as neccessairy, once I choose where to have it.

BTW, does anyone know if recode2 does this propperly on its own? And while OT, does anyone know why MOVIE ONLY DVDs don't autostart, while full movie dvds do?

Greetings,
ux-3

Project is on hold... the joining doesn't work as I want it to.

[r0lZ]

I suppose that Recode uses the Nero engine, and therefore you will not be able to select the LB position.

You should be able to set the layer break where you want with PgcEdit. However, since the DVD is reauthored, I don't know which position will be selected by default. I suppose that a good position is the first cell of the part 2 of the movie, but I'm not sure it will be the default position.

[ux-3]

I ran into some trouble joining with recode, and found a solution posted elsewhere:
You can use Nero Recode (if you have it) to merge titles and IfoEdit to Create Ifos around the merged title.

This will give perfect chapter navigation, no trouble, and should set the time flags so they are all seamless entries, so the "little pause" is eliminated.

After that, yes, make it into an ISO and burn with DVD decrypter. Shrink can do this job.


I am currently trying to implement it (it worked), but found new problems. Can your program redo the ifos too, without having to manually paste the subtitle color?

Greetings
ux-3

Edit: I just used PGCedit to open the fresh output of recode. Obviously, you are aware of the "reauthor to join" output, since your program was aware that an error present is typical for shrink's reauthor mode. I was skipping through the doku but probably won't see what I am looking for cause I lack the right terminology. The disk has a VTST 1,1 with TTN 1 and a VTST 1,2 with TTN 2. I just followed the suggested method with ifoedit. I wonder if I could have created one big title using your program too. If not, MAYBE it would be worth adding??

[r0lZ]

No, PgcEdit doesn't have a Create IFOs function. You can import a titleset with PgcEdit, but its IFO must exist.

Pasting subpics colors is easy with PgcEdit, but you have also to copy them from the original PGC. Anyway, a program cannot guess which color to use.
Note that you can change the color indexes directly in the subpic stream with DVDSubEdit.

[ux-3]

Ahg... just my luck!
I have managed to join the parts, turn them into a one-piece playing movie, gotten the subtitles back to work and now, there is no way to place the layer break. Sigh! Pgcedit suggests to split a certain cell and provides some numbers, but I can't figure out just where in that cell I should split. You've already made your program's response on this error quite elaborate. Perhaps it would make sense if you would also compute, for laymen like me, between what times we should try to split that cell.

What can I do? Well, I could split that cell. Never done it before but there is always a first time. As far as I have checked it, vobblanker can do it. I am just a little clueless as to where to split. I realise I should pick a quiet and black moment. I would need to hit that small range that PGCedit told me, but I don't get that address format in Vobblanker. It would be very helpfull if your program would not only tell me which cell to split, but also the time range where the split has to occur. (just a suggestion)


Obviously, I could start recode2 again, and recode to a somewhat smaller final size, thereby creating enough flexibility to find a cell border that can take the break. Unfortunately, the cell that needs to be split is quite long (~350 MB). That way, I would be wasting quite some space.

From my limited understanding, there would be another way, which might be better. I would have to find the sizes of the two layers, shrink the halfs seperately to fit to their respective layers (making sure that layer 0 gets slightly more data), the use recode2 to just join the seperately authored halfs, then use ifoedit to convert them to one title. Then there should be a cell border, namely the one, where the Title was split before.

According to my research, layer 0 can hold 50.44%, layer 1 can hold 49.56%.

Why is it never easy? :(

Greetings
ux-3

Edit: I found a feasible way of getting a layerbreak and fill the disk. Used Recode reauthor mode and uncheked the target size. Took the part from diskA I needed for Layer 0 and set its size to 4050 MB. Then I added the rest from Disk A and Disk B, adjusting that to about 4000 MB. Selected to join the three parts, then transcoded. The result allows the layer break right where I split A and fills up the disk over 98%.

I should set every other cell to seamless, since there are no more LBs there, right? And the one chosen should be discontinous, unless I want to take a risk with my players...

[blutach]

Whether the seamless flag is set is dependent on the mux - this is explained by mpucoder and others in threads in this sub-forum. The entry cell for B (which I presume is where the LB is) should be set to "2" - but this will be done automatically. A layer break at this point is almost perfect in that it is at the start of the title.

As you have noted, if you have determined that your LB can't be set where you want it to, VobBlanker (http://jsoto.posunplugged.com/vobblanker.htm) can split a cell for you at a point of your choosing as can DVD Remake Pro (http://www.dimadsoft.com/dvdremakepro/index.php). In reality, the aesthetics are up to you. You can use the preview window to see where you are splitting.

Regards

[ux-3]

Yes, I could have used Vobblanker. But since there were only about 40 MB left on the DL disk, the cut would have to be very precise, to make a legitimate split. I decided that this approach wasn't a "routine to be", so I tried something more "effective". A tailored shrink, so to speak. Came out nice, but now I have to make it as aesthetic as I can. I'll report back how the operation went, once the patient is in the player...

[r0lZ]

Perhaps it would make sense if you would also compute, for laymen like me, between what times we should try to split that cell.

It would be very helpfull if your program would not only tell me which cell to split, but also the time range where the split has to occur. (just a suggestion)
Unfortunately, it's not easy. It is easy to know which cell must be cut, because the start and end address of the cell is in the IFOs. But since the MPEG2 compression is variable, to be able to display the exact position of the cut point, I would have to analyse the VOB files, or to use the relatively unreliable time maps.

Obviously, I could start recode2 again, and recode to a somewhat smaller final size, thereby creating enough flexibility to find a cell border that can take the break. Unfortunately, the cell that needs to be split is quite long (~350 MB). That way, I would be wasting quite some space.

From my limited understanding, there would be another way, which might be better. I would have to find the sizes of the two layers, shrink the halfs seperately to fit to their respective layers (making sure that layer 0 gets slightly more data), the use recode2 to just join the seperately authored halfs, then use ifoedit to convert them to one title. Then there should be a cell border, namely the one, where the Title was split before.
Note that, with DVDShrink in reauthor mode, it is possible to shrink a part of the movie with a different compression ratio than the rest. This way, you should be able to shrink only what is really needed for the layer break. I'm not sure Recode can do the same thing, but I suppose so.

According to my research, layer 0 can hold 50.44%, layer 1 can hold 49.56%.Note that it is not necessary to have more (real) data on L0 than on L1. If there is more data on L1, then PgcEdit will enlarge the gap before VIDEO_TS.BUP so that L0 is equal to L1.

I should set every other cell to seamless, since there are no more LBs there, right? And the one chosen should be discontinous, unless I want to take a risk with my players...
Right. The first cell must be non-seamless. The layer break cell can be seamless if you want to use the unofficial "Seamless Layer Break" method.
There are some other cases where the seamless flag should be off (for example when the cells are not contiguous in the VOB files), but you will not encounter those situations when reauthoring the main movie only.

[ux-3]

Note that, with DVDShrink in reauthor mode, it is possible to shrink a part of the movie with a different compression ratio than the rest.

Yes, i realized that. It occured to me eventually, that I can remove the destination size goal completely, thereby gaining complete control over the recoding size of each imported part. By splitting a part right at the "to be" layer break, adjusting size wasn't difficult. Now given the info that I need not concern myself with layer0 > layer 1, I would need to know the layer sizes in MB, so that I could aim for this value in recode 2.

Unfortunately, it's not easy. It is easy to know which cell must be cut, because the start and end address of the cell is in the IFOs.

Well, then it would be easy to program a % information:
You need to split cell 50 between 19% and 38% of its data. A CBR time estimate could be given too, but could be easily computed by the user. That would be a clue. If there is no practical point to split, one would have to reencode again. In fact, next time I shrink to fit the layers anyway.

Greetings
ux-3

[r0lZ]

You can compute the layer size easily. Examine your (empty) DL-DVD with ImgBurn and note the number of sectors in L0. The size of a sector is 2 KB.

Of course, don't forget to keep some free space for the IFOs, BUPs, VIDEO_TS.VOB, the 32K gaps, and the ISO header and file systems. Since the size needed for the file systems depends of the number of files in the compilation, it's not easy to compute it precisely. Also, it is not recommended to burn up to the outer edge of a DVD, especially for a DL. Anyway, it is better to reserve too much space than too few!
In normal circumstances, and assuming that VIDEO_TS.VOB has been removed or totally blanked, the first VOB of VTS 1 starts around sector 400. To be on the safe side, consider that it starts, for example, at sector 1000, and add the sizes of VIDEO_TS.VOB and VTS_01_0.VOB to estimate the start of VTS_01_1.VOB.
Of course, if there are no menu VOBs, it's easier...

[ux-3]

I actually did that yesterday. My fault was probably to take free sectors as total. If I do it in a mixed way, it would mean 4076 MB for side 0, by using
"L0 Data Zone Capacity: 2.086.912" (*2/1024)

For Layer one, I would use the disc manufacturers info:

Free Space: 8.547.991.552 bytes = 8152 MB

Then, contrary to what I read before, I would get 4076 MB on layer 1 too. Oh well...

So I would simply adjust to reach these figures as target sizes, since Recode2 usually undersizes anyway. The ifos are movie only, idfoedit created. They are small compared to the expected undersize. This should work in the future.

How does Sony handle an LB flagged as "seamless"? PGCedit gave me ample of warnings, since the break started a new vob and had a high mux rate. So I took the conventional version. Still better than swapping discs.

[berrick]

OK you can all shout at me but i can't find the answer to this question

I also checked another film which also had the LB flag for cell 1 grayed out and two other LB flags set?

What is the meaning of the grayed out LB flag at cell 1 and i assume that multiple LB flags are not a good thing?

I've found lots of intersting info i didn't know whilst searching but am getting frustrated that my searches are not answering this question. :confused:

Could someone point me in the write dircetion pleeeeeeease :o

[r0lZ]

Sorry, I though it was easy to find...

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=715231#post715231
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=783891#post783891
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=816375#post816375
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=110426

[berrick]

LOL,

It prolly is, unfortunately i have a bad habbit of using the wrong words in search engines :D

Mind you, i did search just using "Layer break". I didnt see these :confused:

Thanks for the links will read when i have time

[ux-3]

@r0lZ:
I recall having read that you own a Sony DVD player. Have you ever tried what happens when you flag an LB as seamless which is at a place with a high mux rate? How does your Sony feel about that?

greetings
ux-3

[r0lZ]

I can't test that any more. The laser is so tired that it is very difficult to play a single layer DVD. Playing a DL is impossible! Pitty!

[blutach]

I have 2 SONYs - one new and one pretty old. I only burned one seamless LB disk so far. But both players are quite happy to play through it.

Regards

[ux-3]

The mux rate was high at the break?

[blutach]

I'll have to check - I did break at a VID change, so it may have been low. I'll get back to you.

Regards

[bigotti5]

The mux rate was high at the break?

No available authoring soft can lower the mux rate if you do not work with angles

Even commercial DVDs (Superbit for example) can have seamless layer changes, mine ("Das Boot") even at high mux rate ...

[mpucoder]

And has been said earlier, the mux rate does not seem to be important to the vast majority of players. It may have been important to early players, but most of these have probably been retired. Unless you are producing a commercial DVD I would not worry about the mux rate. If normal mux rate seamless layer breaks work for you, then use them.

[blutach]

And as it turns out, the LB for the DVD I burned was at a low mux rate. Perhaps that's why my old SONY was happy.

Anyway, this is a terrific advancement. For so long the LB pause has been irritating. Can't help but wonder if the studios will go to seamless LB.

Regards

[berrick]

Ummmmmmm,

(blonde moment comin' up) I'm getting confussed reading up on layer break!

my understanding so far from what i have read suggests that if I dont mess with the original structure of the dvd and assuming the recording software dose not change they layer break position it should play ok?

But, if i rip a dvd using DVDd in file mode then blank a pgc or two and alter the navigation then burn it, it wont? even though when i check where the LB flag is, on the burned rip using PGCedit it appears to be in the same place as the rip.
My understanding for this is it is most likely caused by the layer break being in the wrong place (due to size of dvd changing) causing the size of layer 0 to be smaller then layer 1?

Still confused why with some dvd's there are multiple LB flags ticked in main movie? i dont understand why this tick box is classed as an inverted short cut?

Are my assumptions correct?

sorry to be a pain :(

[r0lZ]

Still confused why with some dvd's there are multiple LB flags ticked in main movie? i dont understand why this tick box is classed as an inverted short cut?
Forget the "Layer Break?" flag: it doesn't exist.

Click on the Cell Flags button in PgcEdit. There is a flag called "Seamless playback joint". When it is set, it indicates that the cell must be played seamlessly with the previous one. When it is clear, the player must pauses a little bit (displaying the last image of the previous cell). During the pause, the player has some time to seek to another point on the DVD and to refocus the laser, and to verify if the previous cell has a cell command and execute it.
This flag serves many purposes. It must, for example, be clear on the first cell of a PGC, since it is impossible to play the first cell seamlessly with a nonexistent previous cell. It must also be clear when the previous cell has a cell command, or the command will not be executed.
Among all this stuff, the seamless joint flag must also be clear on the layer break cell.

Therefore, when the seamless flag is clear on a cell in the middle of the main movie, it indicates probably that it's the layer break position, since there are no other reasons to pause at this point. Hence the "layer break?" pseudo-flag in PgcEdit. It is the inverse of the seamless flag: it is set when the cell is not seamless. In PgcEdit, turning it on has exactly the same effect than opening the Cell Type Flags dialog, and turning off the seamless joint flag.

The "layer break?" pseudo-flag can indicate the position of the layer break. But it is important to understand that it is not the layer break.

To be sure that a cell is probably the layer break, it should be non-seamless, the VOB ID of the cell should change and the Cell ID should be 1. The previous cell should not have a cell command. Of course, the cell should be at a place on the DVD where it is physically possible to split the DVD in two layers.
Unfortunately, none of the layer break rules above are always respected. On some DL DVD (Superbit) the seamless flag is even set on the LB cell, to avoid the little pause. (PgcEdit can do that also when burning a DL-DVD.)
Therefore, it is sometimes impossible to determine where the original LB was.

Since the introduction (historically, by IfoEdit) of the "layer break" pseudo-flag seems to be more confusing than useful, maybe I will change it to a "seamless" flag in PgcEdit. It will be a direct shortcut to the seamless joint flag of the Cell Type Flags editor, without the current inversion.

[r0lZ]

my understanding so far from what i have read suggests that if I dont mess with the original structure of the dvd and assuming the recording software dose not change they layer break position it should play ok?

But, if i rip a dvd using DVDd in file mode then blank a pgc or two and alter the navigation then burn it, it wont? even though when i check where the LB flag is, on the burned rip using PGCedit it appears to be in the same place as the rip.
My understanding for this is it is most likely caused by the layer break being in the wrong place (due to size of dvd changing) causing the size of layer 0 to be smaller then layer 1?
Your assumption is theoretically correct: if nothing has changed, the DVD should be reconstructed exactly like the original. Unfortunately, the only way to be sure nothing changes in the file system structure is to extract and burn an ISO image. Doing so is easy, but very limited.

When ripped in file mode, you can modify your DVD the way you want. But even if you don't change the size of the files, you will probably not have the LB at the right place anyway. For example, PgcEdit might have shortened or dropped some useless tables (it's the case when a DVD has referenced empty menu VOBs, automatically removed by PgcEdit.)
Also, when you save the DVD, PgcEdit computes the VTS sector pointers for a single layer DVD.
A burning app has its own way to build the image of the DVD, therefore the number of sectors necessary for the headers and file systems at the beginning of the image is variable, and it is impossible to generate the VTS sector pointers correctly for any burning app.

Conclusion: when you burn DVD-Video files on a DL-DVD, it is always necessary to recompute the layer break position. Of course, you can use the original position if you wish. PgcEdit tries to preselect it, but, as you know now, it's not always easy.


Note: If you burn with PgcEdit, it is not necessary to have more data before the LB than after. If L0 has less data than L1, PgcEdit will increase the gap before VIDEO_TS.BUP so that the total size of L0, including the gaps, is equal to the size of L1.

[berrick]

WOW! :goodpost:

Many thanks r0lZ very clear.

My confussion was because i could not understand why there was a tick box for layer break when in PGCedit you could access the cell type flags. I thought it set the Layer break position, LOL now i no for sure.

Is it possible that these last two post are posted somewhere they could be found easily for others to benifit mayb a sticky "layer break explained"?

[r0lZ]

Thanks!

You're right, I forgot to mention that the layer break pseudo-flag is there for the novice user, so that he can, for example, turn off an annoying layer break pause on a DVD-5 compilation. Understanding the cell type flags is not so easy...

I'm not an administrator at Doom9, so I don't know if your request is possible or useful, but you can certainly start another thread on the subject and link to the previous posts.

[berrick]

Just in case any one comes across this post in the future here is the concluding post to this thread, DL Burning issues.
Several things didnt help.


A miss understanding on my part that the LB flag in PGCedit is a "psuedo LB" (see r0lZ earlier explination)
My 6 year old Pioneer DVD player struggled with DL disks that were not originals
Not appreciating the impact the LB can have on burned DVD


I have now bought a new Pioneer DVD player and followed blutach's guide to burn DL with PGCedit and ImgBurn and so far had no failures :). As i tweak the way my backups play this is the way i intend to continue............. for now ;)

:thanks: to all who contirbuted

[blutach]

Thanks for getting back to us berrick. You might also like to look at the ImgBurn (www.imgburn.com) forum where there are some simple guides to burning DL disks with ImgBurn (www.imgburn.com).

Regards