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View Full Version : Pros and cons of 25FPS -> 24FPS conversion

bkman
21st May 2006, 12:01
Can anyone share their understanding of the merits of restoring 25FPS PAL content to its original 24FPS framerate, as detailed in this topic: http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=108853 ?

Why don't more people attempt this conversion in their PAL rips?
MrTroy
21st May 2006, 12:26
Why don't more people attempt this conversion in their PAL rips?Because many PAL releases nowadays are pitch-corrected. If you slow it down, the audio will be 4% too low. Plus you have to recode the audio, reducing quality.

My advice: if you have a PAL source, just leave it that way. Slowing down won't do any good.
actionman133
21st May 2006, 12:32
Not in my experience.... I've downloaded several quicktime trailers over the years (which play at 23.976/24p) and they definitely have lower pitch than the corresponding PAL movie or trailers found on the DVD's.

Can you provide me with any examples of pitch-corrected PAL DVD's, because it would be a first for me...
MrTroy
21st May 2006, 12:50
Lord of the Rings: Extended Editions, U2: Live in Boston are some I know of. The first because the reviews say it, the latter because I own that one and slowing it down to 24fps doesn't work.
bkman
21st May 2006, 14:21
How can you tell if a DVD has been pitch-corrected (without comparing it against an NTSC equivalent)?

And what is the likelihood of such a DVD?
MrTroy
21st May 2006, 15:09
I think there are only 2 ways to tell if a DVD is pitch corrected:
1) compare to NTSC DVD or soundtrack CD
2) it sounds awful if you slow it down by 4% (voices too low)
bond
21st May 2006, 16:21
there are two sorts of movies:
1) movies produced in pal countries which are natively shot in 25fps
2) movies not produced in pal countries

now 1) is not a problem and obviously there is no need to convert those to 24fps. 2) movies are propably english speaking (hollywood), the pal version of those movies have most likely a new soundtrack in another language (french, german, spanish...) recorded for pal

so no need to change the framerate from 25fps in most cases
bkman
21st May 2006, 16:28
the pal version of those movies have most likely a new soundtrack in another language (french, german, spanish...) recorded for pal

Can you explain what that has to do with anything?
bond
21st May 2006, 16:32
we were talking about the pitch. obviously a soundtrack recorded for 25fps has the correct pitch for 25 fps (even if the original video was shot for 24/30fps)
bkman
21st May 2006, 16:39
Yes, but how would non-english soundtracks affect the pitch of the original English one?
bond
21st May 2006, 16:59
it wouldnt, but who needs the original english audio when you are not english speaking :D
bkman
21st May 2006, 17:09
But I am :D
MrTroy
21st May 2006, 17:17
the pal version of those movies have most likely a new soundtrack in another language (french, german, spanish...) recorded for palThat's only true for some countries (Germany, countries with Romance languages, and Eastern Europe). In most countries people prefer the original English soundtrack.
bond
21st May 2006, 17:33
That's only true for some countries (Germany, countries with Romance languages, and Eastern Europe). In most countries people prefer the original English soundtrack.not that i care, but "germany, romane languages and eastern europe" is like 90% of the european population :p
GeneralMartok
21st May 2006, 17:49
There is no need for audio reencoding. Just use ReClock.
I can't hear any loos in quality.
movies produced in pal countries which are natively shot in 25fps

Only true for stuff shot on video like news or sports. Movies and TV series are shot on film at 24 fps.
MrTroy
21st May 2006, 19:33
not that i care, but "germany, romane languages and eastern europe" is like 90% of the european population :p
Uh, right... I think the UK, the BeNeLux, Scandinavia, Greece and Turkey make up more than 10%...
Daodan
22nd May 2006, 13:41
Just to continue...except Germany and France I don't know other country that likes crappy dubs (maybe in Russia, they have some really weird dubbing there but they seem to like it..). In the rest of the countries, they have subtitles, which is also in my opnion the way to go.
quake74
22nd May 2006, 14:01
Just to continue...except Germany and France I don't know other country that likes crappy dubs (maybe in Russia, they have some really weird dubbing there but they seem to like it..). In the rest of the countries, they have subtitles, which is also in my opnion the way to go.

Maybe we're going offtopic, but you can add Italy to the list. Here everything is dubbed, and thank god for dvd's which include the original soundtrack.
manolito
22nd May 2006, 14:35
there are two sorts of movies:
1) movies produced in pal countries which are natively shot in 25fps

This is quite new to me. AFAIK movies shot on optical film are shot at 24fps, no matter where in the world they are shot. To convert such a movie to PAL you have to either speed it up to 25fps or insert two fields per second. Speeding it up is the preferred method because there are no pseudo-interlaced frames after the conversion. Audio is also sped up, but today usually the audio pitch is corrected to the original pitch.

Cheers
manolito
scharfis_brain
22nd May 2006, 16:04
manolito, in fact, bond is right.
For television productions like series or low budget films for PAL countries the movie/series is filmed with 25fps.
So there won't be any speedup at all with the transfer to video.

Some time ago I've seen an old michael jackson video that was filmed with 30fps.

As you can see: film can have any framerate, if you want.

Film cameras commonly have options for 24 and 25 fps as far as I've seen in the product descriptions of some cams.
manolito
22nd May 2006, 18:40
@scharfis_brain
We have to be careful to not mix up "film" and "video" here. Bond was talking about "movies produced in PAL countries", so I assumed he was talking about "film". I just did an extensive web search about movie standards, and all the articles I found stated that 24fps is the international standard for movie theater films. The cameras (I visited the Arriflex and Panavision pages) can of course shoot at different speeds, but for movies intended to be shown at movie theaters 24fps is used.

In your post you mention a Michael Jackson "video" which is something very different. While there is a small number of video cameras that can record full frames (progressive), the vast majority of consumer and professional studio cameras record fields at 25fps (PAL) or 30fps (NTSC).

Cheers
manolito
scharfis_brain
22nd May 2006, 19:41
for sure movies, which are made for being displayed in cinemas are always shot at 24 fps.

but films that are only thought for TV boradcast (the'll never be shown in a cinema) are shot at 25fps. Believe it.

The michael jackson clip was shot on film for sure. due to the filmic appearance (grain & some dots or scratches sometimes)
actionman133
22nd May 2006, 23:21
but films that are only thought for TV boradcast (the'll never be shown in a cinema) are shot at 25fps. Believe it.

The michael jackson clip was shot on film for sure. due to the filmic appearance (grain & some dots or scratches sometimes)

Likewise, American TV shows that are shot on film (such as Friends) are often shot at 30p, I've been told...

I listened closely to the Return of the King Extended Edition... it *could* be pitch corrected, although I have no comparison, so I can't be sure... I'll see if I can find a trailer.