rule 6 and legal downloads [Archive]

Mug Funky

3rd May 2006, 03:50

i refer to threads such as this:
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=110627

now, there's not really anything of value in that thread as such, however i'm seeing a lot of these threads happening when perhaps the OP just needs a little help.

the rule 6 expansion about downloading that's in the newbies forum is being used as a rule in other places, often simply because somebody has used the wrong wording, like "i have an mp4 file...". though i agree that a certain amount of vigilance is necessary to prevent this forum from becoming a pirate's tech support line.

it seems to me that posts of this kind are only going to increase, as legally downloadable content is increasing - there's archive.org, creative commons stuff, legaltorrents, google video, etc. perhaps it's time for rule 6 to be amended to cater for legally downloaded content. i'm not sure how, i'm just pointing out that there's a problem in this area.

i'm quite sensitive to this subject simply because i've been in many of the situations that the Original Posters of these threads are in, and often write up a post on what to do, only to have the thread locked before i hit "submit". it isn't our place to bully people who've chosen the wrong wording for their post, or even simply said that their source is in a format that's often associated with illegal downloads, and that they didn't make the file themselves.

anyhoo, my point is that perhaps we could all come up with something acceptible and beneficial to the community regarding legal downloads, because in my opinion "illegal until proven legal" goes against the spirit of almost every member of this community, considering the similar assumptions made by certain anti fair-use organisations.

... of course this is a "DVD backup" community, but i think this is within it's current scope, considering the DV, NLE, audio, HDTV, etc subforums here.

well, i'm posting this to get an idea of what other people would like to see happen in this area

setarip_old

3rd May 2006, 04:03

You've got my vote on suggesting a distinction between posts that clearly indicate "legal" downloads versus those that unnecessarily either state outright, or give a very clear indication that the source is NOT "legal" (such as a filename including "DVD-rip").

Afterall, the sole purpose of the pertinent rules is, or should be, to protect the forum from outside attack, not to attack posters...

Until or if the rules are changed, however, I don't see any choice other than to abide by them in their present form.

And the "ANNOUNCEMENT" in the "Newbies" section should either be added to the "Rules" page or eliminated...

dani82

3rd May 2006, 09:33

a wolve in sheep's clothing

Wilbert

3rd May 2006, 10:51

the rule 6 expansion about downloading that's in the newbies forum is being used as a rule in other places, often simply because somebody has used the wrong wording, like "i have an mp4 file...".
In my opinion such wording is acceptable. Other mods might think differently though.

anyhoo, my point is that perhaps we could all come up with something acceptible and beneficial to the community regarding legal downloads, because in my opinion "illegal until proven legal" goes against the spirit of almost every member of this community, considering the similar assumptions made by certain anti fair-use organisations.
I understand that you think this way, because we all do in normal life. The main problem for us, is that in many cases we can't find out if a user is telling the truth or not, when he says his downloaded clip is legal without giving any further justification. Personally, I don't have time to ask everytime for further justification. What should we do if he can't give further justification? Should we trust him that his downloaded clip is legal? If so, then all downloaded clips will be legal, unless someone explicitly says it's about illegal contents. The latter doesn't happen much, but happens sometimes :)

Btw, personally I never strike people unless it is *clear* that he is talking about illegal contents.

GodofaGap

4th May 2006, 10:30

The wording "I have an mp4 file..." should be completely acceptable and should not be reason for any suspicion at all. There are ways to obtain mp4 files legally and there are ways to create mp4 files yourself (and you don't really need to be a video expert to do this).

Sometimes I have the feeling that some people after having read the words "I have an *** file" just start fishing for the origin of the file for no good reason and try to trick the OP so they can give him a rant about rule 6. I think this is rather unnecessary, because I haven't seen it very often happen that when people ask for help with a DVD they are asked where they got it from, while it is quite easy to get illegal copies of DVDs too. Well, ok, unless it is clear that the title hasn't been released yet.

I think the proper action would be that when a user asks how to perform operation X on a file of type Y, people should just help him how to do that and NOT ask for the origin of the file unless it is absolutely necessary. So if someone just wants to know how to split an MP4 file, tell him how to do that in the easiest way. There is no reason why you can't help him with that without knowing the origin of the file.

setarip_old

4th May 2006, 10:48

@GodofaGap

Hi!

I'm curious to know how you'd feel about a question and answer as follows - and why:(Question) I have an avi file that is 448W x 336H (4:3). Everything appears severely streched in the vertical direction. Can anyone point me in the direction (aka software/scripts) of horizontally stretching this out, or vertically squashing it so it looks normal on screen?

(Answer) 1) What is the source material for this .AVI that you've created - DVD, video capture?
2) Is the source material 4:3 or 16:9?
3) What software and procedures did you use to create this .AVI?
4) Did you crop off "black bars"?
5) Have you tried using different players, to see if it plays differently/properly?

Mug Funky

4th May 2006, 11:07

Well, ok, unless it is clear that the title hasn't been released yet.

actually, almost everything i deal with is pre-release. it's the nature of making DVDs. only time i work with already released stuff is when somebody messed up and the title's been recalled from stores pending a fixup :). of course most of it comes out in the US before it gets here (region 4) though, unless it's a french film :)

Audionut

4th May 2006, 11:17

Is Doom9 on holiday's!!

It has been stated before, that NO help will be given to people who are talking about downloaded files. Period.

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=767944#post767944

However, if people can't comprehend rule 6, then perhaps it should be added to/worded differently.

GodofaGap

4th May 2006, 11:35

@GodofaGap

Hi!

I'm curious to know how you'd feel about a question and answer as follows - and why:
The question is if someone could point him to software that can stretch it to normal proportions. So the answer is:

Yes, you can do this with Avisynth and/or VirtualDub by using a resize filter. This will require re-encoding though, which is slow and can degrade quality. Alternatively you can adjust the aspect ratio setting in your player to 16:9 (most players can do this) to see if that might fix the problem. However, you will have to change this manually for each video.

As for your answers:
#1 is fishing
#2 is also fishing
#3 fishing again
#4 doesn't have anything to do with the question
#5 is ok.

@Audionut: you can expect people to have read the rules, but you can't expect people to have read every sticky and thread in the forum. The rules make no explicit mentioning of how to deal with downloaded material. Which either means discussing of legally obtained downloaded material is ok, or the rules should be updated to reflect the current stance of the board administration.

Audionut

4th May 2006, 13:04

you can expect people to have read the rules, but you can't expect people to have read every sticky and thread in the forum. The rules make no explicit mentioning of how to deal with downloaded material. Which either means discussing of legally obtained downloaded material is ok, or the rules should be updated to reflect the current stance of the board administration.

I know there is a post somewhere from Doom9, the owner of these forums, stating his opinions on this subject. But for the life of me, I cannot find it.

At the end of the day!
You have these.
http://forum.doom9.org/announcement.php?f=6
Which is posted in the newbies forum.

6) No warez, cracks, serials or illegally obtained copyrighted content! Links to content of a questionable nature, asking for, offering, or asking for help/helping to process such content in any way or form is not tolerated.

If you can't take it upon yourself to ask for clarification/do some search, as to what is questionable content. That's your own damn fault.

You can post all the lame ass excuses you want.

If you really want to get technical than you also have this.
16) Instructions by the moderator team are to be followed.

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=110059
http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=812226&postcount=18
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=109818
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=108945
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=108724
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=108680

When registering on this forum, you have a whole five days to familarize yourself with the way this forum runs.

SeeMoreDigital

4th May 2006, 13:06

Wilbert's comments seem perfectly reasonable to me :)

But I do feel the forum rules require some form of revision, so they don't point to stickies...

GodofaGap

4th May 2006, 13:31

@Audionut: I do not see why regulation on a board would need to be fragmentated into a set of rules and several threads and stickies. I understand I am obliged to read the rules, I understand I need to use search to see if my question is not asked before, but I do not understand why I would need to search all around the forum to find out if I can ask a question about my captured AVI, legal download or any other source which is not a DVD. I've read the rules, it doesn't appear to be against it.

I don't understand why, if the board wants to stay away from downloads altogether (which I can understand), it doesn't make this clear in rules but resorts to stickies some people might read, and other people might not read. Just because I have not posted before, it doesn't mean I will automatically end up in the newbies forum (rule 11).

Similarly, why is nobody asking what the people are gonna do with the files after they have received help. Wouldn't assisting someone to release something illegaly on p2p be just as much against the spirit of rule 6?

Again, I do not disagree with the rules as such, I just think that the way they are used is rather inconsequent and that in some areas they could be more clear.

dragongodz

4th May 2006, 14:31

It has been stated before, that NO help will be given to people who are talking about downloaded files. Period.

this is of course completely wrong.

you quoted the actual rule and the relavant word is of course "questionable". that is a file of which it is either unsure or not made clear if its legal or not.
however if you look you will find other legal downloads such as trailers from apple etc talked about all the time for use of testing etc.

the main problem i see is you have the main rules saying you should not ask about questionable content, but then have that sticky saying
To keep us from having to decide which is which, we request that you not mention downloaded movies. Never.
which is actually conflicting. since if you ask, for example, for help trying to play a trailer you downloaded rule #6 would seem to not apply but that sticky says you should never ask anyway.

so in the end my feeling is that sticky is wrong in its assertion you should NEVER ask simply because discussion using legal downloaded content is already throughout this forum and threads are not closed because of it.

to save a lot of hassles for mods though it should be stated what the content is. that way they wont have to waste time trying to guess if its ok or not.

mpucoder

4th May 2006, 18:13

Most of the time the source of the file is irrelevant to the description of the problem, therefore saying dumbass things like "I have a downloaded copy of Star Wars ep 4" will get you a strike. This forum is not about "releases", but still people come here and post as if it were. And the purpose of rule 6 is to make it clear that is not what we do, and any appearance of illegal downloading gets removed to protect the forum from MPAA legal action.

And likewise I have seen a lot of fishing going on in an attempt to entrap people posting questions. ("What is the name of your legally obtained commercial DVD" or words to that effect) I don't think that is necessary or desirable. We are here to solve technical problems, not debate legality. Only when it is obvious that the question is either the result of or can lead to illegal activity should we question it. Examples are "I downloaded a release" or "How do I rip a double sided DVD to DLT, my replicator won't accept ..." (yes, someone asked a question like that once)

foxyshadis

4th May 2006, 21:39

The questions setarip posted are perfectly valid - how was it created is sometimes important, as some muxers/encoders have known problems. And for an anamorphic screwup, it's best to go back to the source and find the AR anyway. On the other hand, in threads he often includes guilt trip phrases like "legally obtained DVD", although TS questions are probably more common these days...

The suggestion "rip it again" is valid too, but only once other methods have failed; who wants to spend 12-24 more hours reripping, when a 20-minute solution might be available?

Mug Funky

5th May 2006, 02:30

"How do I rip a double sided DVD to DLT, my replicator won't accept ..." (yes, someone asked a question like that once)

lol! you'd think pirate replicators would be using DVD-R images by now... come on, get with the times :)

though it is strange... if you had to do a thing like that one would think they'd already know how to do it (re-issues often are just rips... the first replication run has sold out, a new glass master is needed, and the tape backups are off-site, so it often makes sense to grab the office copy, rip it, and run it through the premaster tool again... but usually in such a situation the disc will be re-authored, small problems fixed and new trailers put on).

neuron2

5th May 2006, 05:56

What do you mean by a "glass master"? Thank you.

dragongodz

5th May 2006, 06:34

What do you mean by a "glass master"?
from here http://www.discinc.com/electronic_master_Disc.htm
Glass Mastering is the process of transferring the CD master to a physical image of the pits that are on the finished CD. The glass master is a glass plate, about 10" in diameter, coated with a light-sensitive material. During glass mastering, a laser etches very tiny pits on the material. When the master tape is played, its digital signals are converted to the EFM coding format for the CD, and that signal is fed to the special laser cutter. The glass master is very delicate, and cannot be played. Succeeding steps in the process, called Father, Mother, and Stamper, result in the metal forms which are capable of hot molding thousands of compact discs on the presses.

and here http://www.aidinc.com/features/dvdfaq.asp
Replication is an industrial process where your DVD-R or in some cases DLT tape is used to create a glass master. That glass master is then used to physically stamp copies out like a cookie cutter. Those replicated DVDs are as compatible as any DVD you buy in the store.

Mug Funky actually works for an Australian dvd company, that is they release, including standards conversion/encoding etc, dvds here. so he is familiar with and uses real production hardware in his job.

Doom9

5th May 2006, 11:56

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=823305#post823305

smitbret

11th May 2006, 20:07

Sometimes this place turns into Salem, Massachusetts.
-Brett

neuron2

11th May 2006, 20:43

Sometimes this place turns into Salem, Massachusetts.
-Brett What times would those be, Brett?

spuddog

12th May 2006, 03:40

I can't speak for Brett, but it does seem that some members and moderators are more intent on playing "got-ya!" on the source of files than helping solve the problems being asked about.

neuron2

12th May 2006, 05:22

I can't speak for Brett, but it does seem that some members and moderators are more intent on playing "got-ya!" on the source of files than helping solve the problems being asked about. Isn't it the primary duty of moderators to enforce the rules, ergo, they should be more intent on that?

MrTroy

12th May 2006, 10:47

And likewise I have seen a lot of fishing going on in an attempt to entrap people posting questions. ("What is the name of your legally obtained commercial DVD" or words to that effect) I don't think that is necessary or desirable. We are here to solve technical problems, not debate legality. Only when it is obvious that the question is either the result of or can lead to illegal activity should we question it. Well, it's not only normal users who make themselves guilty of that. In this thread (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=110972) a moderator is clearly fishing to find out what the source of a file is, even though it's completely irrelevant for the problemsolving.

CWR03

12th May 2006, 11:15

That thread seems like a poor selection to use as an example of a moderator fishing considering the original question of "Is there a place where i can find subs for hd movies?" is already against rule 6. Add to this that the poster's first thread requested help with even more questionable material, and ukendt had reason to suspect him of something.

MrTroy

12th May 2006, 19:35

and ukendt had reason to suspect him of something.True. But the suspiction should've stopped when the original poster said that he/she recorded it from US broadcast. We have to assume that the members are telling the truth.

CWR03

12th May 2006, 21:02

Actually he never said he recorded the broadcast himself, in fact when asked he dodged the question completely.

So...You didn't personally record this broadcast and You don't live in US?
Anyway THAT doesn't matter, if i recorded them myself or not

Bird Brain

12th May 2006, 21:40

neuron2

12th May 2006, 22:48

no doubt about it. Please cite your evidence for this claim.

Bird Brain

12th May 2006, 23:54

it's based on viewing how various moderators respond. not saying it was you, never noticed names. i've been observing long before my join date. you'll also notice i'm not complaining either. i can leave if and when i don't like it. i'm entitled to my opinion. end of story.:)

:goodpost:

neuron2

13th May 2006, 05:44

it's based on viewing how various moderators respond. OK, please cite some of those responses. Thank you.

Shinigami-Sama

13th May 2006, 08:45

@neuron
like this one?
I"m to lazy to search for my own link and this is nicely here :)

Well, it's not only normal users who make themselves guilty of that. In this thread (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=110972) a moderator is clearly fishing to find out what the source of a file is, even though it's completely irrelevant for the problemsolving.

Doom9

13th May 2006, 12:58

but it does seem that some members Somebody must've have missed my last comment.. starting with it.. such expeditions can be sanctioned by rule 16. Members are supposed to report, not to play vigilante.
There's a very thin line between a fishing expedition with the goal of handing out a rule 6 strike ,and a fishing expedition to find out more about the source.. pulling out worms out of somebody's nose is normally what has to be done with people that didn't create their sources on their own. Those people really are not entitled to any help and they may or may not be violating copyright law so we can either 1) not help at all, 2) help and help in violating the law, or 3) help and in the process find out more about the legality of the source and take it from there.

And, I don't really want people who downloaded something off a website (let's assume it's perfectly legal) and that have no idea whatsoever about digital video.. that's not the clientele this board is looking for.. we're looking for those who either already know something and are eager to learn more, or those that are very eager to learn and are willing to invest the time necessary. Your average "download latest movie off P2P and try to burn it to a DVD" person fits neither criteria. And I don't mind if those people don't get the same welcoming treatment as somebody who's truly willing to invest him/herself or is even already contributing by helping out others.

setarip_old

13th May 2006, 19:55

There's a very thin line between a fishing expedition with the goal of handing out a rule 6 strike ,and a fishing expedition to find out more about the source..Even when you offer an answer, rather than asking a question about the source, you sometimes get responses that have the aroma of a possible violation of Rule 6 and/or the newbie "ANNOUNCEMENT" (which really should be physically incorporated into Rule #6, to avoid confusion):

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=111107

No "fishing" involved...

Posting #33 by Doom9 says it all...

Bird Brain

15th May 2006, 01:31

OK, please cite some of those responses. Thank you.

http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=824716&postcount=2

neuron2

15th May 2006, 01:39

I see you cited one of my posts. I am a moderator. It is my assigned duty to prevent discussion of downloaded materials (among other things). If it looks like it might be downloaded, I ask about it. If you find that like burning witches, you should go find a different forum.

Remember, this forum is for and about *DVD backup*.

Bird Brain

15th May 2006, 03:39

I see you cited one of my posts.

pure luck.

I am a moderator.

obviously

It is my assigned duty to prevent discussion of downloaded materials (among other things). If it looks like it might be downloaded, I ask about it. If you find that like burning witches, you should go find a different forum.

like i said before, i don't care because i know what to say and what not to say. it's easy to see how one must adapt to please the forum.

Remember, this forum is for and about *DVD backup*

many people here are clearly not backing up dvd's though!:rolleyes:

anyway, i'm a lover not a hater. good night and god bless slim:)

SeeMoreDigital

15th May 2006, 10:38

Oh dear!

Inventive Software

15th May 2006, 16:22

This just begs another opinion!

IMO, downloads from the torrent shouldn't be handled here, as it's the torrent user's responsibility to :search: and look for solutions that way. Downloads from Google Video are a little more tricky. The content themselves is always open for debate as to it's legality, and surely Google should be more restrictive in allowing uploaded video content. That's what BitTorrent is for.

Downloads provided for example by Warner via BitTorrent, as Doom9 mentioned in the news last week, could be classed as legal, but would they get the same "level" of help in getting the damn things played back / converted to a more usable format? If Warner are selling them at the same price as DVDs, and DVD Backup is quite within the restrictions of this forum, then this would constitute as legal in the sense of rule 6 and this forum, correct?

Doom9

15th May 2006, 17:31

If you have legit content, it takes you but a sentence to prove that legality.. plus in many cases that information also helps with the answer to the question.. e.g. some services use DRM10, other services use fairplay, etc.

Bodysurf

15th May 2006, 23:56

I see you cited one of my posts. I am a moderator. It is my assigned duty to prevent discussion of downloaded materials (among other things).
I was pointed out here (http://forum.doom9.org/announcement.php?f=6) how that apparently is the case.

However, it should be IMHO to prevent discussion of copyrighted or illegally obtained material.

If we avoid discussion of downloaded material, then we have to avoid discussion of everything here (http://www.doom9.org/software.htm) also which is obviously not the intent.

neuron2

16th May 2006, 00:22

If we avoid discussion of downloaded material, then we have to avoid discussion of everything here (http://www.doom9.org/software.htm) also which is obviously not the intent. If it is so obvious, why are you picking on my post? It's perfectly obvious in my post what "materials" refers to.

Bodysurf

16th May 2006, 01:16

If it is so obvious
It is obvious that "downloaded material" wouldn't refer to downloadable hosted material on this website.
why are you picking on my post?
No comment.
It's perfectly obvious in my post what "materials" refers to.I disagree. As I wrote, it's obvious it doesn't refer to material hosted here -- besides that, it's unclear.

A site suggestion: If the term "downloaded material" reflects you are speaking about illegal or copyrighted material then that term could IMHO be improved or replaced. Perhaps "copyrighted material" rather than "downloaded material"?

Shinigami-Sama

16th May 2006, 03:50

mayhaps: non-licanced material?

@neuron
you ask for examples then get defensive, calm down they're only text based words mate.
and before I get struck...

neuron2

16th May 2006, 05:40

@neuron
you ask for examples then get defensive, calm down they're only text based words mate.
and before I get struck... Struck for rule 3. This thread is about rule 6, not me. You wanna lecture me, do it in a PM.

dragongodz

16th May 2006, 05:54

plus in many cases that information also helps with the answer to the question
this is why i said earlier its can be a good idea to mention what the content is and/or where you got it from. sometimes its hard to help without being able to try things on the footage yourself.
now sometimes that wont be possible. for example if Mug Funky is working on footage for a dvd release months away(as i said he does this proffesionally) then he can not of course just give out the footage.

i have had disagreements with mods in the past, where i was nowhere near as disrespectful as some of the comments about mods in this thread, and i got an official warning with threat of a strike.
so maybe people should stick to the subject and not question the mods job.