Multiangle DVD issue

[^JazzMan^]

I've noticed that authored DVD's with DVD-RB which contain multiangle tracks don't come up like the source ones.When switching the angles during the play, video freezes for 1-2 seconds and then resumes.This issue can get little annoying when u watch a concert DVD cause the song doesn't "flow". I was wondering if its about something in the rebuild phase or it has to do something with the encoding process?
cheers

[Fishman0919]

Are you watching with a Software player or Hardware player?

I done several dozen multi-angle DVD with DVD-RB Pro and none for them freezes, pause or flicker at all on any of my players.

I've used CCE Basic, CCE SP, HC, QuEnc, AQE, TMPEGEnc and Procoder 2 with DVD-RB on multi-angle disc with flawless results.

Maybe media issue, maybe DVD Player issue....

[^JazzMan^]

Freezing occurs on both software and standalone DVD players, infact it occurs when i return from a secondary angle to a primary, for instance changing from angle 2 to angle 1.. when i change from 1 to 2 it all goes well. I've only tried with CCE Basic and HC. CCE encoding was followed by a macroblocks, not the kind that show up on low bitrate scenes, they more look like blocks caused by a damaged media played on a standalone player. HC encode however didnt show macroblocks, but it also freezed.

Its not a DVD player issue cause same thing occurs on mounted ISO file...

[Trahald]

can you mention some particular dvd titles that exhibit this issue and what region they are to see if the problem can be duplicated and thereby corrected?

[^JazzMan^]

I've only encoded 2 DVD's featuring multiangle mode, both concert DVD's:

Rammstein - Live Aus Berlin [region 1-6]
Jammiroquai - Live In Verona [region 1-2]

cheers

[jptheripper]

what version of dvdrb were they encoded with?

[^JazzMan^]

Rammstein DVD was done with DVD-RB 1.08.1, Jamiroquai is done with the latest 1.09.2 .. I'm gonna try rebuilding jamiroquai using "Dual layer target size DVD-9" bypassing the encoding process and see how it would work.I'll keep you informed

[^JazzMan^]

I've done rebuilding the source with the Dual layer target size (DVD-9), the problem occured again but in a milder form..Most noticable was the CCE encode which was freezing for like 1-2 seconds, showing the macroblocks, then resuming with the playing(playing resumes 2 seconds before the moment of angle switching, I guess the length is equal to the freezing duration).Anyone have any idea?

[jdobbs]

Not me. I've been doing multi-angle discs for quite a while and haven't seen any problems similar to that. I don't know if this applies to your case but some places to be careful when working with muliangles/ILVU:

1. Avoid preprocessing or removal of segments. This is critical.
2. Never override any of the defaults. Bitrate limits are extremely important in ILVU.
3. Don't change or allow any other program to change any of the values in the INF file. ILVU requires certain type of GOPs, bitrate ranges, and timing.
4. Never, ever use OPV with any ILVU source -- it will very likely cause problems.

[^JazzMan^]

Would choosing custom matrix affect too, or using the encoder default is suggested? I've been doing some tweaking through RB-Opt concerning bitrates, lowering some values on the extras, I should try not changing them and report again

cheers

[^JazzMan^]

I've done another encoding, this time I sticked to jdobbs precautions, didnt tweak with Rb-Opt, disabled menu encoding, I even disabled "steal space from extras"(I know the last one sounds unlogical considering the situation), simply Ive done rebuilding with 1 click mode enabled.I've only used the RebuMan matrix as the main feature matrix, but nothing changed, problem still occured..I've also found others reporting the same situation through other threads:

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=760249#post760249

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=760775#post760775

I hope someone could suggest any possible solution, since this issue occured on others too...
cheers

[Incognitoid]

Yeah this is definitely a problem for me too, and has been ever since I upgraded to the pro version to test out its ILVU capabilities.

The switching between the angles is problematic, as there is usually a pause and a skip, sometimes even a "tearing" effect (for lack of a better description). It usually is more prominent going from angle 2 to angle 1 and sometimes even the audio resets (depending on what kind of dvd you have). Most of the dvds I have tried to backup were of the interactive 'adult' variety and so far rebuilder has trouble with these. And it's not the encoders either. I have tried all of them, CCE..etc with similar results.

Unfortunately now, for most all ilvu titles I'm stuck with dvdshrink when I know a higher quality process could really make these backups shine.

[jdobbs]

Well I'm certainly confused. I've done probably 100 ILVU titles and haven't had a problem with any of them...

[Incognitoid]

Huh, well just for kicks I tried backing up the second disc of my collector's edition of "a bug's life". Although it looks a little better than some of my other attempts the same fundamental problems show up again with the ilvu segments. While switching from angle one on down to angle 4 you might not notice much, but switching to angle 1 there is a definite pause then a subsequent skip in the audio (when compared to the original).

Then I ran it through dvd2avi in preview mode to compare to the original. Here you can clearly see the "tearing" effect when the angles switch. The picture kind of breaks down into little squares and dissipates rather than a seamless transition as seen in the original. Now this isn't always visible when played on a software player, but it almost always shows up when you run it through dvd2avi.

I don't know at this point, perhaps if you have a way of getting a hold of this disc you can give it a quick run through to hopefully put this matter to rest? Have most of the ilvu movies you've backed up been run of the mill ntsc film movies? So far the problems I've had have been with ntsc video (29.97fps), but I don't have a good hollywood ilvu ntsc film flick on hand to test it on atm. If you find no problems with a bug's life then at least I can perhaps shift my attention to what I might possibly need to tweak.

[jdobbs]

That sounds like missing frames...

[jdobbs]

I own "A Bug's Life"... I'll have to check and see if it's the Collector's Edition. I'll run it through tonight and see if I find anything odd. I'm pretty certain I've done it before, though.

[mp3dom]

Could be that some parameters are not passed to the encoder? The macroblocks on ILVU change could be caused by the GOPs that are not closed and/or a problem with GOP pattern.
For a multi angle you always need:
- Closed GOPs and regular "pattern"
- Scene change detection switch off
- Auto I frame insertion to off
- 1 video track + all audio and subpic tracks need to be max 8 Mbps per VOBU
- All angles (except the 1st angle) doesn't have Sequence End Code

[jdobbs]

DVD-RB sets everything correctly... but a lot of people like to do pre/post processing -- and I can just about guarantee that most of the other packages used don't distinguish between ILVU and normal video.

[jdobbs]

@Incognitoid

I just noticed how you reported the "ripping" or "tearing". That's because you are using DVD2AVI to view it, not because there is an error in the video. ILVU isn't that simple. The video is not contiguous. The ILVU video is broken into sections and is interleaved. If you try to play it back with anything other than a DVD player the player will get confused because the picture before/after a frame at the interleave point may not be related to the "ripped" one.

DVD2AVI can't handle ILVU. If you looked at the original with DVD2AVI you'd see the same thing.

[Incognitoid]

ok obviously you know a lot more about this than me ;) , but I actually already did put the original through dvd2avi and you don't see the same effect..for what it's worth. I think whatever reason that is, is probably the same reason those of us who are having these problems are seeing them when played back on a software/setop player.

(and I specifically put it through dvd2avi because I knew it would play the angle segments consecutively instead of concurrently, switching each time repeatedly. But I should reiterate that using dvd2avi is not the only time I see this. It also happens when using software/setop players on most of the titles I have tried to convert.)

But I noticed perhaps something pretty important from what you stated above. I did use dvdremake pro for pre-processing beforehand, and this might in fact be causing a problem. I'll try it without any preprocessing and instead just blank out the unecessary segments with rebuilder for testing purposes...wish me luck ;) .

[jdobbs]

Well I am very familiar with DVD2AVI -- and unfortunately you are mistaken. It very definitely doesn't handle ILVU and it will do exactly as you described on every ILVU source you run it on. So what you are seeing couldn't be related at all to the problem you are reporting.

Sorry, but that is just a fact of the way it works. It doesn't recognize ILVU and will switch between the streams... and when it encounters a B frame that references a nonexistent predecessor it will make the blocks.

I really don't know how you could have missed it unless something else was at work -- because DVD2AVI will do it every time on every ILVU section.

[Incognitoid]

ok I'll grant you that with dvd2avi. I tried a bug's life again with no pre-processing. Unfortunately the same results when played back with powerdvd. A pause a skip in the stream most prominent when switching to angle 1, some 'macroblocking' at times.

edit: actually regardless of how dvd2avi actually works. I have tried this on some other titles with ilvu segments and it's the same thing I don't see this 'macroblocking' when previewed with dvd2avi, but do after encoding with rebuilder. It's not something I'm straining to find, it's very noticeable, like a powerpoint presentation transition effect, not like a low bitrate encoded movie or something. And unlike what I normally associate the term 'macroblocking' with, here the blocks are not contiguous with one another or their surroundings. It's more like someone divided up the frame before the angle change into little blocks, and then shattered it or pulled it apart with the pieces separating from each other. I'm starting to think that the only way to prove that this isn't lunacy on my part is to upload a sample or something, which I will do if needed/legal. Again if anyone out there has a bug's life disc 2 they can try this out for themselves. If the output is a seamless ilvu build then I'll know that perhaps it's a problem on my end. But seeing that I'm not the only one who's had this happen, I'm thinking that at the very least it's a problem with certain setups, and perhaps a problem with certain titles.

edited again: I should mention that the same effect is visible if you play the vob directly with powerdvd, or any other software dvd player. so dvd2avi is not the issue.

[JFerguson]

I have "A Bug's Life", 2-Disc, CE, stock #17989.

[mp3dom]

I don't know about DVD2AVI but in DGIndex/VDub Mod the ILVU change doesn't create any macroblocking. Also, I'm not sure about that, but with Closed GOPs the B frames could be decoded correctly without a P or I frame.

@Incognitoid: Try to open the MPEG (m2v) with Bitrate Viewer and see if all the GOPs are closed correctly. Multiangles has a very restricted specifications to work (for example try to see if there are bitrate "spikes" that exceeds the maximum bitrate for more than 2 secs. If it's the way then the MPEG is not good for multiangle). Also custom matrix could lead to an uncontrolled bitrate by the encoder so if you also set the max bitrate you can have a lot of spikes that can cause problems. Try standard matrix or lowering the max bitrate.

[HKT3020_1]

I had a similar problem in the past (The Matrix R1) and Nero was the culprit, I don't know exactly how you guys are writing to discs but I wouldn't recommend Nero for burning DVD files. As for viewing files on a software dvd player, be sure to have the latest version of PowerDVD as I'm sure some actual fixes were made to justify the upgraded price tag. :rolleyes:

[jdobbs]

DGIndex/VDub Mod the ILVU change doesn't create any macroblocking I can assure you it does. I had to write a lot of code in DVD-RB to do on-the-fly extraction of ILVU segments into standalone VOB files and create separate D2Vs for that very reason. It may be possible, however, that recent versions ignore or repeat for orphaned frames so you can't see it -- but that wouldn't fix the problem, only mask it.

[jdobbs]

Nope -- it isn't masked at all. Here's an example from "The Matrix" using DGINDEX/DGDECODE v1.4.5 and VDUB. Please note that this doesn't mean there is anything wrong with DGINDEX. It is working exactly like it should -- it just doesn't have built in support for ILVU.

[mp3dom]

I think that there's something missing... I have recontrolled all my multiangle project (compiled directly in Scenarist and encoded with CCE with Closed GOPs... etc etc and a GOP of 12 frames) and in all the DVD the ILVU change doesn't create any macroblocking with DGIndex and VDubMod. The reason is that every ILVU block starts with an I frame and ends with a P frame, so, both frames can be decoded correctly. If the ILVU block starts or ends (wrongly, I think) with a B frame then the macroblocking appear since it cannot be itself decoded. Also every ILVU segment length is not "constant" (I think Scenarist calculate every segment during interleaving phase). The "freeze" effect (my hypothesis) could be due to the fact that the player need to bufferize the previous GOP to decode the current B frame (at the ILVU change).

[jdobbs]

So you are saying that the commercial version of "The Matrix" is incorrectly authored?

I don't think so.

I think I'm going to go on to another subject. I know how ILVU works and I know how DGINDEX works and I'm not going to spend a lot of time arguing a point I know for a fact to be true.

Remember ILVU includes more than just "angles" there is also "seamless branching". Sorry, I should have been more clear.

[Edit] I corrected myself on an incorrect "broken GOP" statement. Also cleaned up what what unintentionally sounded like a "hostile tone".

[jdobbs]

@Incognitoid

mp3dom makes a good point. If it is multiple angles (and not seamless branching) it sounds like the video wasn't encoded with Closed GOPs. DVD-RB automatically sets all ILVU sections to "Closed GOPS" and fixes the GOP lengths.

Is there any chance that any other package may have modified the ECL files?

The version of "A Bug's Life" that I have isn't the "Collector's Edition", it's the original one-disc version -- so I couldn't test it last night. I'll go out and buy it tonight and do some testing.

If you still have the REBUILDER.ECL and REBUILDER.INF files, could you mail them to dvd-rb@dvd-rb.com?

[jdobbs]

Ok I picked up "A Bug's Life" CE... one question, though. You said the problem was on Disc 2... why would you reencode it when it already fits on a DVD-5? Am I missing something? I just want to know that I am repeating your situation when I test it.

In fact, if you don't turn on "Force Reencoding" for some reason, the ENCODE/REBUILD sequence will be using the exact same untouched video that was on the original disc.

[jdobbs]

Ok, I've gone through the code very carefully. I have found a way in which, under very specific circumstances, it might be possible for an ILVU section to slip through and not be encoded with Closed/Fixed Size GOPs. It can only happen if you are using CCE.

I don't know if that's what you've experienced, as I haven't seen your ECL or INF files (my gut says its unlikely, but you never know) -- but either way I have fixed it for the soon-to-be-released v1.10.3.

[Incognitoid]

Ok I picked up "A Bug's Life" CE... one question, though. You said the problem was on Disc 2... why would you reencode it when it already fits on a DVD-5? Am I missing something? I just want to know that I am repeating your situation when I test it.

In fact, if you don't turn on "Force Reencoding" for some reason, the ENCODE/REBUILD sequence will be using the exact same untouched video that was on the original disc.

True but I needed to test this on a movie that I figured would be commercially available enough for other people to test that I had on hand. To be honest I've been looking for that 'force reencode' option for a while now, is that a hidden ini setting? To get it to reencode I had to lower the CCEtargetsectors a little below the original dvd's size.

As far as the .inf and .ecl file I still have them, unfortunately my email is on the fritz, so I upped them instead to yousendit (7 day limit of course.)

http://www.yousendit.com/transfer.php?action=download&ufid=FEBE5E4C4CC50366

As far as altering the code for the next release I'm glad to hear that and appreciative even if it might not apply to my situation. The 'macroblocking' issue seems to be mostly a cce problem. But the pauses and skips as mentioned earlier also seem to happen with the other encoders and even rejig, so I remain cautiously optimistic about this getting fixed with the next release.

[jdobbs]

Hmmm... your disc is very different from mine. Is yours NTSC, R1? The ILVU section on my copy is in VTS_01. On yours it is in VTS_02.

Having looked at your ECL -- the ILVU sections are not marked for Closed/Fixed GOPs. That's very definitely a problem. I've manually corrected it and attached it to this post. Could you replace the ECL, and then do an ENCODE/REBUILD (with CCE)? I'd like to see if it corrects the issue. If so, the fix I mentioned should help.

By the way. I did my copy of "A Bugs Life" last night and it worked correctly. Curious.

[Incognitoid]

Yeah it's a region 1 NTSC DVD, got it from one of those columbia house dealies when it first came out (but don't hold that against me ;)). They might have altered it with subsequent releases. On mine vts 1 just has one still picture of some flowers.

Anyway, well I replaced the ecl with your altered version and the great news is that THERE ARE NO MORE MACROBLOCKS :). So the closed gop switch did the trick in that regard.

However, the angle switching problem remains, as I thought it might. Looking at the 4 ilvu segments of the 'flaming death trap progression demonstration scene' of a bug's life actually has brought to light that it appears that switching from any higher angle number back to a lower one seems to cause this pause and skip, it just so happens that angle 1 is the lower one when there are only 2 angles, so it seemed as if switching to angle 1 was the culprit. So just to be clear, switching from angle 4 -> 3 will cause the same effect and 3 -> 2 and so on, but the reverse direction is smooth.

Thanks for everything so far, a complete solution is so close I can taste it..lol.

[jdobbs]

Unfortunately I haven't been able to repeat the problem on my system. I ran it several different ways -- and have been testing it with PowerDVD. It works correctly every time. I did do one run where I forced open GOPs and I could see the blockiness during the switch occasionally -- but it still transitioned smoothly.

Have you tried it on a standalone player? The "backward reference" issue sounds more like a playback problem than format. Buffering, maybe?

[Incognitoid]

Yeah I tried it out on my standalone too, same problem. It is odd that you are not having these same effects. I even did a reinstall and I'm having the same problem. I'm thinking of trying to install rebuilder pro on another computer I have with a slightly cleaner setup and xp home instead of pro, maybe it will make a difference, who knows. How many computers can I have rebuilder installed on btw?

[jdobbs]

Wait before you do. I've just found something that may be related...

[side note] Ugghh. Now I remember why I put the ILVU support off for so long... lots of rabbit holes to go down.

[jdobbs]

[still looking -- I've got another idea]

[Incognitoid]

ok, I'm staying posted :-)

[jdobbs]

I have it. It's an odd one -- but I'm pretty sure I've identified the cause.

I was going to release v1.10.3 today... but I've decided I'm going to hold off until I work on this and do some testing. It shouldn't be long.

Thanks for providing me with background and a disc title that I could use to find it. Those VOBEDIT dumps sure came in handy. :)

[Incognitoid]

hehe, I know this wasn't a fun task for you, but I hope it will save you some headaches down the line. Even though I don't have it yet, I trust that the issue has been addressed and I will thank you in advance. Looking forward to the release..cheers

[Incognitoid]

Well I finally got to try out the new version, and I must say the apprehension level was pretty high considering that I've pretty much been waiting for this moment for about a year and each time has resulted in failure.

But NOT THIS TIME...YES!! Played flawlessly when I tested a bug's life. I could almost cry (cheesy yes, but true). Perhaps if I had only spoken up earlier, but I kept thinking that this was too big a problem to not be addressed and kept putting it off. Guess not everyone had this problem, but to those of us that did it was extremely frustrating. Thanks jdobbs for everything. Already in my pantheon of programs, dvd rebuilder is officially a piece of software I am glad I paid for.

Now um, maybe someone should pm/email jazzman since he started this topic (if he isn't aware already) :D .

(I think i might print out and laminate my first fully successful ILVU rebuilder log I'm so happy...lol)

[jdobbs]

Funny how this threads take on a life of their own, isn't it? It went from Jazzman's posting an issue, to a discussion about whether DVD2AVI can be used to properly test/view ILVU sequences, and to "A Bug's Life".

Well, anyway, at least the issue got corrected. It was worth holding off v1.10.3 for a couple of days.

[^JazzMan^]

I'm so glad this thread got a happy ending! :) I was following all the replies with great interest, thanks to Incognitoid's constructiveness and jdobbs's devotion on this project, we all got this nice epilogue implemented in v1.10.3 ;)


Big thanks to jdobbs and all the guys helping in the development of this great project!

cheers

[jdobbs]

Big thanks to jdobbs and all the guys helping in the development of this great projectGuys like you and Incognitoid. :)