World Video System for DVD-Rebuilder

[CCE]

I want to ask to jdobbs if possible to add plug-in for dvd-rebuilder to convert NTCS DVD

to PAL vice versa, included menu. Wile the encoder Cinemacraft support this conversion?

It will be great for dvd-rebuilder.

[jdobbs]

It's far from a simple thing to do, especially for the NTSC to PAL conversion... going the other way may be possible for a movie-only encode. I'd really like to see if the demand is high for this before spending a lot of time on it (mainly because I think it would be a major undertaking).

[JohnGalt]

I have been waiting with bated breath for this feature! :) I have a number of French titles that aren't available here in the states, and I'd love to be able to back them up such that I could watch the copies from my couch instead of my desk.

[GZZ]

just me that can't understand why people want to convert to NTSC. Most, if not all TV and DVD players support both NTSC and PAL signals and by converting you don't get better quality. So why not just keep it in pal ?

[JohnGalt]

just me that can't understand why people want to convert to NTSC. Most, if not all TV and DVD players support both NTSC and PAL signals and by converting you don't get better quality. So why not just keep it in pal ?

well, perhaps "most," but clearly not "all." that is, my settop doesn't play pal. powerdvd on my computer, however, does, so I can watch those titles on my computer, thankfully. I just don't like to watch films while sitting in my desk chair.

of course, my desired sitting arrangement is hardly reason enough for jdobbs to work on what is apparently a daunting new task. but if there are others who want the feature, and perhaps for better reasons than I, then maybe it would be worth his time. I, for one, would be happy to redonate for the inclusion of this feature. that's still cheaper than buying a new dvd player capable of playing PAL titles. :)

[Video Dude]

I have been waiting with bated breath for this feature! :)
You can add my name to the list too.

PAL -> NTSC is the feature I would most like to see added to DVD-RB.

[jptheripper]

actually, in the US, the most if not all of the higher end players and tv's cannot do the conversion.

Add me in for the pal2ntsc movie only conversion



just me that can't understand why people want to convert to NTSC. Most, if not all TV and DVD players support both NTSC and PAL signals and by converting you don't get better quality. So why not just keep it in pal ?

[steptoe]

Sort of off topic, but why in the US you struggle to get PAL/NTSC players or TV's. I've seen this mentioned in other forums

In UK getting hold of DVD and video players as well as TV's that will handle PAL and NTSC is incredibly easy



I have to admit that option to convert PAL to NTSC could make DVD-RB a must have for a lot of people. Quite possibly some would use it solely for that purpose

[jptheripper]

no idea why. the manufacturers here decided we only need r1 ntsc capable only.

only players that will do pal are apex/memorex, etc.. the off brands so to speak. past year or 2 some of the better models have started to do pal, but to little to late.

as for tvs, i personally dont know of any us tv that will natively display pal correctly

[Sir Didymus]

It may seem incredible, but the reason why here (in PAL land) the large majority of TV sets and DVD players are happy with NTSC titles, while in NTSC land just few players are capable of playing PAL titles is of historical nature, most probably related to the fact that VHS tapes were very popular in USA since the beginning of their introduction, while in Europe they were introduced just later, when an already large and consolidated market of NTSC VHS tapes was available...

By the way this state of fact is the reason making (in general) almost un-useful the conversions NTSC --> PAL, while the opposite path PAL --> NTSC would be a very nice and appreciated feature (for R1 users) of DVD-RB...

Well, it is that from the end of the '80 years, due to the large diffusion of the VHS tapes, it started to appear here in Europe (and to become popular) some PAL TV sets capable of displaying NTSC contents in a specific modality (pseudo PAL).

Today almost all of the PAL TV sets having less than 15 years are perfectly able to play NTSC contents by using this hybrid modality. Basically in this mode, just the colour subcarrier is converted from NTSC to PAL: the resulting format, for the colour, is a PAL, with 4.43 MHz of colour subcarrier, but keeping the NTSC video scan rate of 525/60.

Clearly it exist also true multistandard TV sets (that are not so rare, to say the truth), introduced in parallel with the satellite television... But that's an off-topic digression inside another off-topic...

[Video Dude]

It seems like the only players that are widely available here in the US that will play PAL discs are the cheap "$30 Walmart" players. But the problem is that they offer subpar video and audio quality. They also seem to break only after a few months of use. Then there are some models that do such an awful job at the conversion that you end up getting a headache from all the jerkiness.

[canuckerfan]

In Canada, every player I've bought since around 2000 (only about 3 players) has been able to play PAL DVDs flawlessly without intervention.

[jdobbs]

My JVC will play them as long as they are region free and the output is via component connectors. I found it out quite by accident when trying to debug an error related to PAL a couple of months ago.

[JohnGalt]

well I've definitely tried PAL on my player via every connector & with discs that I ripped, de-regioned, and burned. no love. also did some research into performing the conversion myself, but then I decided it was more trouble than it was worth. if rb could do it, however, that would be an amazing extension of its already superlative "one click" abilities.

[CCE]

Well what do you think? Will there be a video system conversion on DVD-RB. I'm sure jdobbs could do it, I'm not a programmer but I think it's just a simple command code for the encoder cinemacraft to able to convert video system as in AviSynth script.

I thanks too all the people who help support this beautiful dream to come true in DVD-Rebuilder. We really need this Video system conversion it’s really a great brake trough for DVD-RB and more power to you Jdobbs keep up the good works. Your contributions to the world of videos are highly outstanding your one of my hero.

[wmansir]

Video conversion is the easy part. But you have to change the frame rate because the two systems use different FPS.

So now you run into a problem. If you change the frame rate you either:

1. Change the number of frames (via Blend/Duplicate) to keep the running time the same, which reduces video quality. An encoder may do this in a quick and dirty way, AVS could probably do it better.

2. Keep the number of frames the same, which changes the run time. Now you have to resync the audio by decoding it, streching it, possibly correct the pitch, and re-encode to AC3. And that's if you can find a legal, good quality AC3 encoder.

[Video Dude]

There is also Don Graft's pulldown flag method where the audio would not have to be touched.

[jdobbs]

I think it's just a simple command code for the encoder cinemacraft to able to convert video system as in AviSynth script Everyone is underestimating this task incredibly. If it were really that easy -- don't you think there would be tools that do it already?

[JohnGalt]

I believe you! as I say, I did some research into doing the conversion myself a few months ago. I read up on a number of different methods, but ultimately decided that I didn't want to invest the time in it. I know it would be even harder for you to write the tools to do it universally, as opposed to doing whatever has to be done to just one title. anyway, if it's too great an undertaking, then definitely don't bother. I would love to see this feature implemented, but I do have some vague inkling of the time/effort it would require of you, and appreciate that you doubtless don't have a lot of free time to devote to this aspect.

[Zeul]

Everyone is underestimating this task incredibly.

Not me.
When i added conversion to numenu it was a major undertaking.

[dragongodz]

Everyone is underestimating this task incredibly.
forget NTSC to PAL since as already mentioned practically every dvd player in most PAL countries can either display or convert them themselves.

for PAL to NTSC however you just have to resize the 576 to 480 and the horizontal to whatever the amount is to keep the correct AR(i am assuming people wouldnt want the actual picture trimmed to make the 480). then add black bars at the left and right to make the horizontal back up to 720. convertfps to 23.976(would drop just 1 frame every slightly less than a second of course) and apply pulldown or convertfps to 29.97(would duplicate or make blended frames).
mux and author with changed subtitles positioning, and cells and chapters etc etc etc based on the old time positions.
then of course do the menus aswell. done.

then wait for people to complain about the black bars at the sides, wait for them to complain the subs may not be 100% exactly where the were, hell wait for them to complain period.

now whats hard about that ? ;)
(read with a heavy dose of sarcasm)

[jdobbs]

I'd use pulldown to convert PAL to NTSC... otherwise the audio will drift out of sync...

[jptheripper]

yeah you can just resize to 720x480, then use pulldown

[Video Dude]

I came up with this method to convert movie only PAL to NTSC. It seems to work very well.

Tools needed: DVD-RB, IfoEdit 0.971, PgcDemux, DVDPatcher, DGPulldown

*The movie must be progressive.

1 - Configure DVD-RB as you normally would. Select "Movie Only". Using the "Filter Editor", add the line LanczosResize(720, 480). Then use one click mode or if you rather: prepare, encode, rebuild.

2 - Open the output (VIDEO_TS.IFO and VTS_01_0.IFO) in IfoEdit. Change all references of PAL to NTSC. Save and close IfoEdit.

3 - Use PgcDemux to demux the .m2v file. (Choose video only and PGC mode)

4 - Open the .m2v file in DVDPatcher and change the header frame size to 720x480. Select "patch entire file". Don't change any other header settings.

5 - Open the patched .m2v in DGPulldown and select 25->29.97. Version 1.07 can modify the pulldown in place, no new file has to be created.

6 - Open VTS_01_0.IFO in IfoEdit and remux your new modified .m2v file. Get VTS.

7 - Burn.


-----------------------

Edit: Step 3 uses PgcDemux instead of VobEdit.



Credit should be given to Don Graft and the forum members that gave him the idea for DGPulldown. The pulldown method makes pal to ntsc conversion a lot easier. And credit to Derrow, jdobbs, and jsoto for their great programs.

[JohnGalt]

I came up with this method to convert movie only PAL to NTSC.

cool -- thanks for outlining your method in clear steps. I'll definitely give that a go. thank you! :)

[LakersFan]

Video Dude, does your method affect the audio at all? (higher pitch, lips off audio towards the end, etc.)?

[Video Dude]

Audio is not touched. You don't even demux it.


Step 3 now uses PgcDemux instead of VobEdit.

[maksa]

I have converted several PAl titles to NTSC and vice versa.
I have used AviSynth command ConvertFPS to do it. It adds the frames where needed (or take them away) but the run time stays the same. Also, Lanczos4resize does the job of getting the format right 720x480 <> 720x568. Of course, some more tricks required for interlaced material like SparateFields & Weave. I do process audio separately but just to convert it to Ac3 to be compatible with NTSC. Pitch need not to be changed. Muxing it with some authoring tool and ... voila!
How to incorporate that in DVD-RB, have no clue, basical I am using Big3 Method (some of the 3 are different).

[maksa]

I have converted several PAl titles to NTSC and vice versa.
I have used AviSynth command ConvertFPS to do it. It adds the frames where needed (or takes them away) but the run time stays the same. Also, Lanczos4resize does the job of getting the format right 720x480 <> 720x568. Of course, some more tricks required for interlaced material like SeparateFields & Weave. I do process audio separately but just to convert it to Ac3 to be compatible with NTSC. Pitch need not to be changed. Muxing it with some authoring tool and ... voila!
How to incorporate that in DVD-RB, have no clue, basicaly I am using Big3 Method (some of the 3 are different).

[jptheripper]

easier way

1. load in rebuilder movie only mode, process with filter in lanczos resize to 720x480
2. edit first .avs and remove trim command
3. manually cce the first avs altering bitrate based on bitrate calculator (or edit ecl)
4. demux audio with dgindex
5. run dgpulldown 25->29.97fps on resultant m2v
5. author with muxman

[JohnGalt]

grr... stupid ifoedit constantly crashes on my computer. this isn't a new thing; it's always done this to me. will chug away from a while, xp will throw an error (just a general error, no err# or anything) and ask if I want to send a report, then in the past (building an img, for instance), ifoedit would keep running happily if I ignored the windows error. however, when it throws this error during remuxing, ifoedit totally hangs. weak.

any ideas on how to make ifoedit not crash? or any other suggestions for (free) remuxing apps?

[Sir Didymus]

Hi, JohnGalt.
In the post just before yours, it is pointed out the usage of Muxman. The free release of this beautiful application is much more than sufficient, and it is much, much better (compliancy, stability, etc.) than IfoEdit for the reauthoring purposes discussed in this thread.

P.S. OT. Please keep the asperities towards IfoEdit on your own: it is a beautiful EDITING tool, developed by a geniuos (Derrow) who gave to the community this application for free. Considering the date it was released, its absolutely amazing to see how many people still use (and like) it...

[LakersFan]

4 - Open the .m2v file in DVDPatcher and change the header frame size to 720x480. Select "patch entire file". Don't change any other header settings.


What settings do you use in DVDPatcher for Bitrate and framerate?

edit- nevermind. I reread your post & see you said to not change the other header settings. So I left the bitrate at 3.5MBit and the framerate at 25 fps.

Let me know if those are the wrong values. Thanks!!!!

[LakersFan]

Another question. After completing everything, I open the VTS_01_0.IFO in IfoEdit to have a look, and it still says 25 fps under PGC_1. Is that right or have I done something wrong?

[Video Dude]

I have to wait for the image to be approved, but I know what you mean.

I do not know of an easy way to change it. However, I think most dvd players will be able to play the disc without problems. It works on my Toshiba and Panasonic players.

If you do experience problems, after the final step use PgcDemux to demux the video and audio (check a/v delay). If you want to retain subtitles the .scn file PgcDemux creates needs to be converted to .sup. Then use MuxMan to mux it all back together.


What settings do you use in DVDPatcher for Bitrate and framerate?
Leave it at 25fps in dvd patcher.
DVD Patcher displays the original bitrate in the right pane. I usually enter that number into the custom box. Sorry that I did not make that clear enough when I said not to change the other header settings.

[hkm]

I certainly want to add my $0.02 that I'd love it if DVD Rebuilder would do the PAL --> NTSC conversion, though I recognize it's complicated.

I've usually had pretty good luck with the quick IFOEdit patch method, not always, but 90% of the time. For others, of course, it'll work exactly 0% of the time, if you've got a fussy DVD player, or some unknown factor in the ifo files.

If IFOEdit doesn't work in my particular case, then I'll usually go the CCE etc route, with DGPulldown. Usually excellent results.

That being said, just let me also add that while I understand so many saying, "Heck, decent a PAL-NTSC player in the states would only run $30 or so." True. The problem, though, is that I'm often re-authoring/transcoding DVDs for other people who have NTSC only [usually the default purchase in the US I'd guess]. Or, say, I want to take a movie to a friend's house for after dinner. Yup, I could ask em to pony up the $30, but IMHO it seems a bit much to ask all my friends to go out and buy a dual machine.

Like I said, just my $0.02

[SAPSTAR]

just me that can't understand why people want to convert to NTSC. Most, if not all TV and DVD players support both NTSC and PAL signals and by converting you don't get better quality. So why not just keep it in pal ?
You must be in Europe...in North America, most TV dont support PAL!!!!!
(When I was living in France, most TVs were multistandard...but in Canada nope...)

[DocDragon]

please add my name to the list who would love to see a PAL to NTSC conversion.

i have families and friends in PAL country, but like a lot of ppl are already saying it, my DVD players don't like PAL discs :(.

DD

[therat]

It's far from a simple thing to do, especially for the NTSC to PAL conversion... going the other way may be possible for a movie-only encode. I'd really like to see if the demand is high for this before spending a lot of time on it (mainly because I think it would be a major undertaking).

Just wondering on the NTSC to PAL front if maybe you could collaborate with the maker of the freeware DVD2SVCD. It has a NTSC to PAL option.

I often buy DVDs from the US and my dvd player won't play them. I can get around that problem but converting them to PAL at the same time would be a real bonus.

cheers

[magic144]

just to add...

a lot of people here are saying how easy the conversion is using DG's DGPulldown utility

I can certainly vouch for the quality of this tool, having used it a lot myself in converting some of my PAL discs to NTSC
(with lots of manual messing about with bitrate calculators, encoder settings, dvd authoring, chapter point frame conversions, etc)

however, I think I'm right in saying that Donald's utility does not handle interlaced source material -> then the problem becomes a whole other cat-herding crapshoot :-)

let's not even talk about the extra work involved for people who want to keep menus and subtitles...!

I recently bought the OPPO digital 971 player which seems to do near-flawless (HD-upconverted over DVI no less) realtime PAL->NTSC (here in Canada, where PAL playback on TVs is just not done - and don't even try to explain it to a "salesman")

all that being said, if JDobbs wanted to go the easiest route and provide a way to integrate DGPulldown into DVD-RB for movie-only encodes of Progressively encoded source material, with no initial support for subtitles, that'd be worth another donation from me I reckon