decrypting high def dvds

[philco]

i was just wondering whats in the future regarding to making backups of our new high def dvds . ive searched everywere and cant find any info. i dont know if i will want to go out and spend the money on the hd player and movies if i cant back them up. since hopefuly they will still make regular dvds like they do with vhs. i know nobody has a crystal ball to see in the future . thanks phil

[SeeMoreDigital]

If you're talking tools to decrypt and back-up Blu-ray and HD-DVD movies.... don't hold your breath.

It could be a very long time before the various encryption systems are circumvented :eek:

[SeeMoreDigital]

first of all you would need a hddvd/bluray pc drive, which are not existing atm :DYep... that's the best point of all.... LOL

[freelock7]

It will be hard to decrypt!
the AACS (Advanced Access Content System) will control the future protections on blu-ray and HDDVD (Rom mark and BD+).
Terrible DRM!
Maybe the end of ripping...
But for legal copy, where will be the issue?

[cynthia_old]

But for legal copy, where will be the issue?Perhaps the costs of blanc discs. I still remember the first prices on both burners and discs.

[setarip_old]

Or perhaps, if the manufacturers' greed doesn't get the better of them (But it undoubtedly will), simply NOT creating HD burners and burnable media for retail consumption, 1:1 copying ("legal" or otherwise) will simply not be feasible...

[strider01]

As Blu-Ray and HD-DVD are not even on sale at the moment, no one has had a chance to even attempt to reverse engineer the system. However, like all things this will simply be a matter of time... if it can be played, it can be copied! It just depends on what is the most appropriate method :)
Personally i have no intention of even purchasing either of these machines quite yet for 2 reasons. Firstly, it will be a few years until we see which (if any) is to be the more successful format (as per Beta vs VHS in the 80's). Secondly, i don't want a "read only" format. With $29 a disc that is pretty steep, especially considering this.... how many times are you actually going to watch the same movie over and over?? At least with audio CD's you certainly got your money's worth from playing a good album over and over! Until i am able to record my own Blu-ray or HD DVD's i'm not even interested in the format! lol :D

[philco]

so what you all are telling me is that i better hope they continue to produce dvds for a very long time.... thanks for the replys. phil

[writersblock29]

@philco

My crystal ball's full of smoke... but I wouldn't worry about the DVD format for some time to come. Remember the laser disk? I think what made that format die as quickly as it did was the fact that one couldn't record to them. The fact that one had to get off the couch (every... what was it? Forty-five minutes or so?) to flip sides or change disks didn't help matters much, either. But the recording feature (in my own opinion) allowed the VHS to hang on for so long that you can still see claw marks leading to the edge of the cliff; tapes were cheap, you could record over them many times, and the usage was very simple. Until DVD recorders became affordable, everyone held on to their VCRs -- and many of those people are still using them.

Now that we have spindles of DVD blanks that average .20-.50 cents a disk -- and a decent encode still looks mighty pristine on those High Def televisions -- I think DVD's simply going to become the next generation's VHS. I would especially expect this if the newer HD players are backwards-compatible with traditional DVD. In this environment, the MPAA would be shooting itself in its own overgrown foot to get too militaristic with the copy protection mechanisms: Everyone but the "gotta-have-its" will merely stick with DVD for the majority of their viewing needs. But of course, logic isn't often used by the MPAA.

The only thing (as I see it... feel free to disagree) that will sweep DVD out to the boneyards quickly would be if media manufacturers -- and studios -- focus so intensely on the new technology that traditional DVD supplies begin to dry up. This is bound to raise the price across the full spectrum; from blank DVD disks to pressed DVD movies. If such a thing were to happen, it would give the consumer a justification for upgrading. Unless you know, of course, that everytime you watch a movie, Big Brother's watching it with you. It's a conflict that's bound to leave fertile grounds for piracy, since copy protection schemes aren't usually present on copied movies; cracking or overcoming a code illegally, ironically, might become the only way to preserve one's right to privacy... or at least grant one the right to "own" what they buy.

[Squee77]

haha I vote No to blu ray there will not be any chance for us to NOT circumvent the protection but would take longer I assume and "Quote by Uknown:If it can be watched, it can be decrypted " Plus some company wont go for blu ray because they are expensive at the moment probably in year 2010 we might as well have nano computers that would go blazing fast and we might have our computers in a different way then we are right now (there is to many things to think about the future)

[CEC]

Every protection is going to get cracked!! They will do this, with the same excuse the used with DVDs! To play the movies in Linux!!!! :devil: :devil: :devil: :devil:

[HardwareGeek]

Every protection is going to get cracked!!
Encryption in principle is an all or nothing thing: either it's secure or it's not. A good encryption algorithm in theory is able to protect information from the prying eyes of even the most powerful governments.

I have often wondered--and perhaps there are those in this forum who can enlighten me--why the CE industry can't seem to implement an encryption scheme that can't be broken.

Last I checked, DVD-A encryption had not been broken.

Blu-ray is going to be a bitch to crack, I've heard.

[setarip_old]

I have often wondered--and perhaps there are those in this forum who can enlighten me--why the CE industry can't seem to implement an encryption scheme that can't be broken.Encryption techniques regarding commercial Video DVDs are limited by the fact that the DVD MUST be playable on all DVD-certified players...

[mpucoder]

As any cryptologist should tell you, there is no such thing as a cypher that cannot be broken. The objective has always been to create a cypher that cannot be broken in a timely manner.
But if it can be played on a PC the unecrypted data can be intercepted (on current, un-DRMed computers).

[freelock7]

Encryption techniques regarding commercial Video DVDs are limited by the fact that the DVD MUST be playable on all DVD-certified players...
Correct. That's why arcoos fails in effectiveness because of hardware limitation.
Hardware protection coupled with HDDVD protection become a powerful tool of encryption but hard to be upgraded too!
Read this:
Due to fears that pirates would create high resolution copies of HD DVD and Blu-ray discs via unsecured analogue outputs, the Blu-Ray disc specification includes the ability to forcibly downscale a disc's output where it is sent over analogue outputs, rather than copy protected digital.

However, in a move to encourage the uptake of Blu-ray hardware, Sony has reportedly now decided not to down-convert the resolution of the HD signals coming out from analogue connections so early adopters of HDTV will be able to enjoy high definition video titles at full resolution.

Don Eklund, SPHE's senior vice president for advanced technologies, said that Sony's initial Blu-ray discs "and all of its Blu-ray titles for the foreseeable future" will be free of the Image Constraint Token (ICT) that's built into the Blu-ray and HD DVD standards.

The ICT is a digital flag within the AACS (Advanced Access Content System) that determines how Blu-ray and HD DVD players output high definition video signals through the player's component outputs. This controversial digital flag instructs the player to scale down the resolution of the video signal from its analogue component-video outputs to a standard-definition image to prevent high-resolution recordings – but at the same time prevents viewing of HDTV images on any TV or device not equipped with a copyright-protected HDMI digital input.

That would eliminate any gain in image quality for HDTV early-adopters who bought displays prior to two or three years ago, when DVI and HDMI digital inputs were introduced. Video output through HDMI is unaffected by ICT since the HDMI output is copy protected by High-Bandwidth Digital Content Protection (HDCP).

According to Eklund, Sony's key piracy concern isn't with analogue HDTV signals but with the digital HDTV signal coming off the disc, which both Blu-ray and HD DVD are protecting with the robust AACS system endorsed by the Hollywood studios. If analogue copying does become a problem down the road, the policy could change, he said, but for now, "we have no plan to implement the Image Constraint Token. All of Sony's titles will come out of the analogue output at full definition." He added that other studios still have the discretion to activate the token for all or individual titles.

Toshiba, the main backer of the rival HD DVD format, has not made any official announcement regarding the use of the ICT function.

Story filed 20 March 2006

[HardwareGeek]

@setarip_old, mpucoder, and freelock7

thx for your replies & information.

I hope to respond in detail later on as time and priorities permit.

All the best

[Wolfman]

SOunds to me that not using the ICT is a sop to early adopters .. once the sets are selling well then all anti-piracy meassures will be fully enforced. BUT does this mean it will be jack-simple to record in SD from a HD player (eg to a DVD-recorder?)

Buy shares in A/V lead companies... the new ones are going to cost large bucks

[HardwareGeek]

This thread spawned this piece of writing here (http://www.askaboutcomputers.com/encryption.html).

[guada 2]

However, in a move to encourage the uptake of Blu-ray hardware, Sony has reportedly now decided not to down-convert the resolution of the HD signals coming out from analogue connections so early adopters of HDTV will be able to enjoy high definition video titles at full resolution.
.

SONY would be ready to equip its products with connectors DVI / HDMI.
If these connectors currently exist, the development is not clearly definite yet.
It will be necessary to wait again.

[eric545]

I fully agree with writersblock29. Although I have 3 sony DVD players and 3 DVD burners, I still haven't gotten rid of my three VHS recorders and I also have TIVO which almost caused me to throw out the VHS recorders.

Since the new HD players will be backwards compatable with DVD I don't forsee my wanting to try creating backups of HD DVD anytime in the near future (like the next 5 or 6 years).

I believe like writersblock29 says, DVD will be here for a very long time.

Eric

[hvatum]

As Blu-Ray and HD-DVD are not even on sale at the moment, no one has had a chance to even attempt to reverse engineer the system. However, like all things this will simply be a matter of time... if it can be played, it can be copied! It just depends on what is the most appropriate method :)
Personally i have no intention of even purchasing either of these machines quite yet for 2 reasons. Firstly, it will be a few years until we see which (if any) is to be the more successful format (as per Beta vs VHS in the 80's). Secondly, i don't want a "read only" format. With $29 a disc that is pretty steep, especially considering this.... how many times are you actually going to watch the same movie over and over?? At least with audio CD's you certainly got your money's worth from playing a good album over and over! Until i am able to record my own Blu-ray or HD DVD's i'm not even interested in the format! lol :D

Same, I won't buy BluRay or HD-DVDs until the encryption is broken on them.

A. Unbroken encryption prevents me from watching it on my Linux MythTV system - there's no way I'm going to waste money on a Bluray or HD-DVD stand alone player that probably won't support discs which I burn later on, forcing me to buy (Joy!) yet another player. Or more likely will stop working when the some new HDDVDs with a super-broken copy-protection (think recent Music CDs) are released which won't play on older players.
B. Until the copy protection is circumvented I can't make backups of the discs, and with my and my friend's history with DVDs there's no way in hell I'm going to spend $20 on something which I can't backup of.

Both Bluray and HD-DVD should rush to release cracks for their copy protection, I think it would be a big boon to whichever standard has their encryption broken first. At least I think many of us would flock to that standard...

[ron spencer]

DVD-A was cracked....pretty ingenious way to do so. It was good too as most of the stuff was just upsampled anyway...

[HardwareGeek]

DVD-A was cracked....pretty ingenious way to do soI don't think that cracked is the right word. CPPM itself, which encrypts DVD-A, has not been broken, as far as I know. I think a way was found to capture the audio after it had been legitimately decrypted.I won't buy BluRay or HD-DVDs until the encryption is brokenDon't hold your breath. AACS is going to be hard to break, if it can be done at all, within a reasonable period of time.

[hvatum]

Don't hold your breath. AACS is going to be hard to break, if it can be done at all, within a reasonable period of time.

Well that's their loss, if they make too effective an encryption scheme that means less money for them.

[HardwareGeek]

I hope you're right. Maybe then they'd lighten up. I hate PUOs (prohibited user operations).

[Mug Funky]

DVD is going to be a stayer. the gap between good SDTV and good HDTV is simply too large, and will stay that way for a while yet.

while people are still tied to their SDTVs, DVD will be king.

also, DVD has had a greater and faster uptake than any other format in history, including books and CDs :) even though the growth is most certainly going to slow (though it hasn't yet while there's still good titles coming, and the consumer "habit" of grabbing a couple of discs while out shopping), it has tremendous momentum that isn't going to be slowed by something that costs an order of magnitude more and doesn't offer a proportional gain in quality (especially considering the titles available... nothing but hollywood, and mostly new, crap FXfests).

I hate PUOs

they have their place, just not on copyright warnings, ads and flying logos...

for example you'd want fast-forward and fast-rewind disabled on motion-menus, otherwise the buttons wont work if someone were to fast-forward. also, things like resume, title menu, next, etc. can really bugger things up if they're enabled in the wrong places.

but i can't stand not being able to skip the Fox Entertainment style "warning for every f***ing country in the world" that happens all too often.

[HardwareGeek]

they [PUOs] have their placeI guess "good" things can be put to bad uses.

I remember having to sit through what seemed like 10 or 15 minutes of trailers, just to see The Hulk.

[blutach]

I put PUOp=192 on all my menus. That way you can't press next or previous on the remote and go from one program in a chapter menu to another without pressing a button.

As well, there is the well-known issue with removing VOB PUOps in multi-angled movies (the angle icon can, on some players, appear on your screen for the whole presentation).

Regards

[Soulhunter]

I have often wondered--and perhaps there are those in this forum who can enlighten me--why the CE industry can't seem to implement an encryption scheme that can't be broken.
To quote the windows vista ouput protection paper...

"The problem with regular AES is that it takes about 20 CPU clocks to encrypt each byte..."


Bye

[Morte66]

(especially considering the titles available... nothing but hollywood, and mostly new, crap FXfests).

That's the clincher for me... At the moment they're talking about "300 titles by the end of the year" or some such. My DVD rental service has 15000 discs, and I stand about a 50%-75% chance of it having a particular title I'm looking for.

In a couple of years, I'll have a look at HD to see whether (a) there's enough software for purchase and rental, (b) a good 1080p projector can be had for about 5000 quid, and (c) the the discs are either cheap or easy to back up.

[I've made 1080p encodes from HTDV transport streams at bitrates that would put a movie on DVD5. They look better than the source, because DGIndex deblocking and ColorMatrix() do more good than x264 does harm. I could certainly live with DVD5/DVD9 HD movie backups. But they take a day or two to encode. So I think I'll want to be copying rather than re-encoding.]

[fields_g]

Even if a crack is known, it would be wise for the person/s who know to sit on it a while till a decient marketshare is held. I havn't even seen a hd-dvd player. The MPAA wouldn't have any problems forcing a suspension of HD/bluray in order to redo copy protection instead of locking in another 10+ years of copying. The earlier, the easier to interrupt.


Anyway... I'm more interested in my own DVD collection being re-encoded and stored on the larger capacity disks. Just imaging how many more movies would fit on a 200 disc bluray changer vs a 200 disc dvd changer.

[gameplaya15143]

Even if a crack is known, it would be wise for the person/s who know to sit on it a while till a decient marketshare is held. I havn't even seen a hd-dvd player. The MPAA wouldn't have any problems forcing a suspension of HD/bluray in order to redo copy protection instead of locking in another 10+ years of copying. The earlier, the easier to interrupt.
If a crack is known, share it! If the MPAA redoes their copy prevention, it will cost them a LOT of money. If each of their new anit-fair-use schemes get broken early enough, and they keep redoing it.. maybe they would lose enough money to just give up on it (I know.. wishful thinking :rolleyes: ). They need to realize, it will be broken. They should stop wasting money on trying to screw over their customers and make a better product.