DVD Shrink & Double Layer Burning [Archive]

DarkestGenesis

14th February 2006, 23:39

Alright I've been searching through the forums and I see there are differences between Double and Dual formats, one being +R and the other being -R. I also percieve to understand that the layer break must be set manualy if you are buring from a set of folders vs .iso, in which case you would either burn with Nero if you have a 1:1 image or DVDD to burn an image with LB already set. But... as far as I see, I don't see much pertaining to DVD Shrink.

If a backup of a DVD has been made with DVD Shrink, is the LB modified as the Backup .iso is being writen to the HDD? I normaly select Full Movie with 5.1 English Audio, when backing up my personal DVDs, but they are just sitting on my HDD. I would like to burn them as they are .iso but would they burn correctly to Verbatim/Memorex Double Layer discs? Or would I have to rip the .iso apart and set the LB somewhere and them reauthor the whole image?

This has probably been asked somehwere but as far as I can see It was not. Please do correct me if I am mistaken.

r0lZ

15th February 2006, 01:43

Shrink is not suitable to burn DL-DVDs. It doesn't set the LB at all.

If the DVD has been modified in any way, or ripped files by files, the original position of the layer break may have moved, and you must select another one. The only case where it should be possible to burn directly the ISO is in the case of a 1:1 image, extracted without any modification of the file sizes. Obviously, since DVD Shrink is made to shrink the DVD, the ISO it creates is not a 1:1 image.

setarip_old

15th February 2006, 02:31

Obviously, since DVD Shrink is made to shrink the DVD, the ISO it creates is not a 1:1 image.Actually, DVD Shrink can be set for D/L disk, with no compression, and NOT to remove the layer break (It's mostly all in the "Preferences")...

DarkestGenesis

15th February 2006, 03:01

@rolz: Yup that's what I figured, but since I don't make a 1:1 image, I would need to replace or modify the LB with pcgedit or something simillar, correct?

@setarip_old: True, I could do that, but I don't want the extra garbage from my personal DVDs

setarip_old

15th February 2006, 04:13

@DarkestGenesis

I wasn't suggesting what you should or shouldn't do - merely correcting the statement made by "r0lZ" (See the "Quote:" in my previous post)...

r0lZ

15th February 2006, 11:28

Actually, DVD Shrink can be set for D/L disk, with no compression, and NOT to remove the layer break (It's mostly all in the "Preferences")...Wrong. It is not sufficient to keep the (wrongly called) "layer break" flag. It must still be at the right position in the ISO. And since DVD Shrink rips by file, and then rebuilds completely the ISO, even without compression and streams stripping, his output is therefore not a 1:1 image.
As I said elsewhere, to rip a 1:1 image, the whole DVD must be copied exactly as it is in the original, with the same sectors dedicated to the file systems, the same gaps between files, and of course, without modifications in the files length and structure. Since every authoring program has his own way to place the files in the ISO, the ISO made by Shrink will certainly not be equal to the original.
Anyway, if you want to do a 1:1 image, why should you use Shrink? It is better to use DVD Decrypter in ISO mode, because it offers the guarantee that the layout of the ISO is not modified.

blutach

15th February 2006, 11:54

Or, best of all, burn with PgcEdit (http://www.videohelp.com/~r0lZ/pgcedit/index.html) of course!!! :D

As for DVD Shrink, don't go near it for DL burning - it's a waste of an expensive blank.

Regards and my pleasure ;>}

LIGHTNING UK!

15th February 2006, 13:39

lol fancy trying to 'correct' r0lZ!

Unless it's an obvious typo, I think it's safe to assume he knows more than you on this subject and you needn't ever 'correct' him.

r0lZ

15th February 2006, 14:01

Who is "he" in your post?

blutach

15th February 2006, 14:33

"he" = rolZ
"you" = setarip

Regards

setarip_old

15th February 2006, 21:58

@r0lZ

Hi!

My posting to this thread about the settings available in DVD Shrink is made from a User's perspective and not from a Programmer's perspective.(As I've stated at other times, my programming efforts ended with the advent of 8 bit technology ;>})

While I'm sure everything you've said is correct regarding the technical requirements for a true 1:1 copy, what I've stated about simply what settings are available from within DVD Shrink is correct.

Further, although I also see no reason to use DVD Shrink to make a DL backup, I experimented and successfully used DVD Shrink to do an uncompressed DL rip of the Region 1 version of "Zathura" (No "ARccOS" or "RipGuard" copy protection) and manually used NERO (v.6.xxx) to successfully burn to Verbatim DL DVD+R. The resultant burned DVD plays perfectly, from start to finish, on three different brands of standalone DVD player.

Although, based on what you've described, I guess this is not technically a true 1:1 copy, as a user, I have a DL DVD that has all of the content of the original and plays just like the original...

r0lZ

16th February 2006, 00:03

I'm glad if worked, stearip. But you might have been lucky. Or maybe Nero is able to modify the ISO on the fly to align the layer break properly?

DarkestGenesis

16th February 2006, 04:30

All I would like to know is if I use DVD Shrink to make an uncompressed MODIFIED image, ie; main movie and 5.1 audio only, can I then use PcgEdit to modify the new .iso to set the layer break and burn?

r0lZ

16th February 2006, 10:52

No. PgcEdit doesn't work on an ISO image. You have to copy the files in a folder, and then use the burn function to recreate an ISO image.

setarip_old

16th February 2006, 11:55

@DarkestGenesis

How big is this .ISO of a "movie-only/5.1.AC3 audio only"?

frank

16th February 2006, 17:22

Originally posted by setarip_old
...and manually used NERO (v.6.xxx) to successfully burn to Verbatim DL DVD+R. And this is the reason why it workes! Nero always sets the LB new. But that doesn't work properly in many cases...

DarkestGenesis

18th February 2006, 23:40

@ r0lZ: Ok that's what I thought. So if I were to take an .iso I have already created and extracted its contents to a folder, I could then use PcgEdit to burn that folder structure as a new ISO with a true LB?

@setarip_old: The sizes vary. Sometimes it's small enough to fit onto a single layer, other times its too big, and I DO NOT want to compress the stream, but I don't want to have the extra garbage, such as special features n' stuff.

Also does it have to be burned as Region 1?

setarip_old

19th February 2006, 00:39

@setarip_old: The sizes vary. Sometimes it's small enough to fit onto a single layer, other times its too big, and I DO NOT want to compress the stream, but I don't want to have the extra garbage, such as special features n' stuff.This now sounds like you're speaking about hypothetical situations.

1) Why would you create an .ISO including "special features n' stuff" from your original, purchased DVD if you don't want the extras?

2) If the .ISOs that you've made from your original, purchased DVDs fit on single-layer (DVD-5) media, you needn't concern yourself with the absence of a layer break...

DarkestGenesis

19th February 2006, 04:35

This now sounds like you're speaking about hypothetical situations.

1) Why would you create an .ISO including "special features n' stuff" from your original, purchased DVD if you don't want the extras?

2) If the .ISOs that you've made from your original, purchased DVDs fit on single-layer (DVD-5) media, you needn't concern yourself with the absence of a layer break...

I wouldn't create an .iso including "special features n' stuff" from my original, purchased DVD becasue I don't want all of theose features. For the backup I want purely the Movie and 5.1 audio. Sometimes the outcome is an .iso that is small enough for a DVD-5, but most often it is too big and therefore needs a DVD-9.

So.... When the .iso file in hand needs to be burned to DVD-9, can the archive be extraceted to a folder and then be modified with PcgEdit and then put back into the .iso archive and burned?

setarip_old

19th February 2006, 06:53

Why look for difficulties?

If you're going to HAVE TO use DL media because of filesize, simply rip your original, purchased DVD with DVD Decrypter v.3.5.4 in .ISO read mode and then use DVD Decrypter in ISO Write mode (or IMGBurn) to use the .MDS file to burn your DL DVD. You will have lost NOTHING by including any extras (which you can simply ignore) because everything will fit on the disc with no compression - and you will have gained the peace of mind of not having to concern yourself with proper placement of the layer break...

DarkestGenesis

21st February 2006, 15:43

r0lZ

21st February 2006, 21:01

Correct! :)

DarkestGenesis

21st February 2006, 21:03

Correct! :)

Thankyou r0lZ

voo_doo99

21st February 2006, 22:39

Weren't we talking apples and oranges :p. In my understanding, there is a logical LB which most of us talked about; and a physical LB [break point on the disc] which r0lZ talked about :)

The physical LB = logical LB + padding sectors [to ensure proper position for burning DL disc]. The dynamic combo [B]PgcEdit + ImgBurn made it easy to "set and forget" the darned LB for us simple folks. Correct? :D

r0lZ

22nd February 2006, 13:18

Correct (http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=788905&postcount=22) :)
But what you call "logical LB" is only a guess. There is really no way to be sure that a cell was indeed used for the original LB position, though a cell in the middle of the main movie with the seamless joint flag clear is probably the original LB position.
I have just (again) explained that here (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=789166#post789166).

m1ckran

24th February 2006, 18:04

Apologies if I'm being stupid, but I've succesfully burned movie-only Traxdata DL's on an NEC2510a, using DVDShrink and DVDDecrypter.

Doesn't DVDDecrypter (and now ImgBurn) automatically compute the best place to insert the layer-break? :confused:

r0lZ

24th February 2006, 18:21

Yes and now: ImgBurn tries to find a cell that is suitable for the layer break in the ISO. But since the files cannot be moved inside the ISO, it is not possible to use any cell. If you are not lucky, no cells will be available. You should use PgcEdit to format the ISO properly, and select the cell you want.

If you use DVDD in ISO mode to rip the DVD, it leaves the LB at the right position, and ImgBurn should therefore use the same cell. A 1:1 image can normally be burned successfully on a DL DVD+R (but not on a DL DVD-R!)

If you use DVD Shrink to build the ISO, to remove some streams or compress the video, you will not be able to burn it successfully, execpt if per chance, a cell is suitable for the LB.

m1ckran

24th February 2006, 19:50

I think I understand.

I might have been lucky with my previous efforts. I don't suppose DVDShrink, set to DVD9 output, would have calculated the layer break in the ISO file for DVDDecrypter?

As I understand it, ImgBurn will compute the layer-break if it can, but it's not always possible and it can fail. The alternative is to use PgcEdit and manually specify the break.

Does this also mean that, with PgcEdit, I can pick a less noticeable spot than ImgBurn would?

LIGHTNING UK!

25th February 2006, 10:45

As PgcEdit is not working with the ISO file, it's possible for it to physically move files around and position them where it wants within the ISO file that it produces in the end.

As such, it can make any cell you like (within reason!) fall on the layerbreak point.

By doing that, you can select a nice low motion scene, or perhaps a scene change to insert the break point - so you won't notice it so much.

Just totally forget about DVDShrink for DL if you're telling it to output to an ISO. If it outputs files, that's fine, the image building app (i.e. PgcEdit) can then space the files out as and when it needs to.

btw, r0lZ, did you not mean 'DVD Decrypter' in your previous post rather than 'DVDShrink' ? ;)

r0lZ

25th February 2006, 11:51

Oops, right! DVDShrink is not supposed to do a 1:1 image, though I don't know exactly what it does if the user doesn't actually shrink the DVD in any way.

m1ckran

25th February 2006, 18:27

Thanks Lightning UK and rOLZ. Nothing better than advice from two of the main men. :cool: :cool:

I think DVD Shrink can be used for a 1:1 backup if the original is a DVD5 and uses the kind of copy protection that Shrink can handle.

I'll certainly look more closely at PgcEdit. The problem is that every time I turn my back, there's an update that makes the whole thing even more complex! :D

I've noticed that blutach is very active with PgcEdit and he's compiled a full installation package that includes all sorts of useful extras. I don't recall seeing it mentioned on this site but I think it could be promoted by Doom9.

:thanks:

setarip_old

26th February 2006, 02:21

@m1ckran

Hi!

You're likely referring to the information contained in these links:

http://forum.digital-digest.com/showthread.php?t=56831

http://forum.digital-digest.com/showthread.php?t=56078

http://forum.digital-digest.com/showthread.php?t=58318

m1ckran

26th February 2006, 02:54

Hi, setarip_old.

Yes, those are the ones. Excellent aren't they?
I think they should be publicised more, for everyone's benefit.

I can't imagine why blutach doesn't blow his own trumpet a little. I've never met a reticent Aussie! :) ;)

setarip_old

26th February 2006, 03:38

I can't imagine why blutach doesn't blow his own trumpet a little.Probably because "blutach" is not the author of any of the actual programs or plugins used...

m1ckran

26th February 2006, 15:40

I didn't intend to belittle the efforts of the application authors. Hope you didn't misunderstand me.

I know Blutach is not the author of the various components and I can't imagine him claiming any credit for that.

It's just that by providing an installer, he's making the job a little easier for us. Rockas, I believe, does a similar thing with DVD Rebuilder - I would be floundering without it.

I've been looking at PgcEdit. It's a bit different to the earlier version I tried many months ago. I can't wait to buy a Sony/Macro'd dvd to try out on it. It's a pity that the studios spend so much time and money on protection systems at the expense of quality film production.