Discussions about what is "best"

[MaximRecoil]

It is a shame that "what is best" threads are not allowed here. The desire to know the "best" is such a fundamentally human thing. Do people come to this site looking for the worst tools and methods of processing video, or the best tools and methods?

What real life discussion doesn't involve "the best"? Have you ever talked about boxing or any other sport? What about guns, cars, stereo's, TV's, CPU's, graphics cards, movies, music, etc.? Do not all of these discussions always boil down to what or who is best? So in some cases there may be no way to objectively establish what is best (other times you can, at least given the proper parameters), but when you have consensus among people who are knowledgeable on the subject, you can be pretty sure that what they agree to be the best, is not in fact, the worst, and is at the very least, good, and likely to be, excellent.

Arguments over what is best are a very effective way of bringing out important facts, specifications and viewpoints on the topic, from a wide range of knowledge bases. When people are writing lengthy posts defending their choice of "what's best", the information on the topic comes flowing in like a river from all sides.

Looking at the actual rule, I have a couple of comments:
Do not ask "what's best" because this question cannot be answered objectively. Each and everyone has their own view about what's best in a certain area. The best is what works best for you!
Each and everyone does not have their own view about what's best in a certain area. Many people do not have the experience and knowledge to form an educated opinion on what is best in the area of question. I do not have a view on what the best treatment is for heart disease, but I would hope that if I asked a doctor, he wouldn't tell me, "Do not ask "what's best" because this question cannot be answered objectively."
The best is what works best for you!There is always the stage where someone doesn't have anything working for them yet. And even when something is working for someone (like say encoding in an old version of Flask with the Cinepak codec), there is no guarantee that it is even a good method, to say nothing about the "best".

All the hard work put in by Doom9 every year to test codecs and declare a winner; what is that all about if not to determine the best?

So anyway, I posted this in "Forum / Site Suggestions" and my suggestion is to eliminate the anti-best rule, because discussions about "what's best" are an excellent source of information by their very nature. They do not all degrade into flame wars, and the ones that do could be closed the same as any other flame war.

[Doom9]

what is that all about if not to determine the best?Actually.. it's what I find best under the given rules.. the winner of a codec comparison isn't the best codec.. it's my percieved best in the given scenario.. nothing more than that. If you start adding filters, use different codecs, the results will not necessarily be the same. If you use another build (it seems the ateme encoder may have a bug), things might also look differently.

I do not have a view on what the best treatment is for heart disease,He'll tell you what's best in his opinion.. then you get a second opinion that may very well differ.

Without going on for hours, but it boils down to this: if you need to aks what's best, there's plenty of boards to go around.. if you are willing to find out on your own.. we'll gladly help you right here and you will gain respect and knowledge by doing that. Rule12 comes from experience, and also partially stems from rule1.. trying out is just an extension of reading up. If somebody asks me in personal about a subject we discuss here, I abstain from using absolutes as well and rather make suggestions as to what I find to be a good choice. The "best" codec for compressing live action, the "best" method for processing live action, is not necessarily the best for encoding/processing animated content (just as an example)... so it would be wrong to claim the title best.

[MaximRecoil]

Actually.. it's what I find best under the given rules..That's what I meant by "given the proper parameters".
He'll tell you what's best in his opinion.. then you get a second opinion that may very well differ.Which is more informative than a reference to rule 12 and a closed thread. If we all restricted ourselves to only asking questions that could be answered with an absolute, there wouldn't be many questions asked.
Without going on for hours, but it boils down to this: if you need to aks what's best, there's plenty of boards to go around..It all comes down to information. Not all forums have an equal information potential. This forum has some of the most knowledgeable people on the subject of video processing around, including some of the authors of some of the software we use. The opinions of these people carry more weight, including their opinion of what is best; just like the opinion of a doctor regarding a medical issue carries more weight than my opinion regarding a medical issue.
The "best" codec for compressing live action, the "best" method for processing live action, is not necessarily the best for encoding/processing animated content (just as an example)... so it would be wrong to claim the title best.It looks like we agree that the "best" can be established within given parameters.

[Doom9]

This forum has some of the most knowledgeable people on the subject of video processing around, including some of the authors of some of the software we use.And how do you think these people got in such a position? Certainly not by asking what's best.. but by doing things on their own. And it's always the people that want to ask these kind of questions that complain about the rule.. not the ones that don't need to ask such questions.

[MaximRecoil]

And how do you think these people got in such a position? Certainly not by asking what's best.. but by doing things on their own.So everyone should reinvent the wheel for themselves? No one got in such a position without help from other people. Finding out the "best" tools or methods does lead to doing things on your own.
And it's always the people that want to ask these kind of questions that complain about the rule.. not the ones that don't need to ask such questions.Who doesn't need to ask such questions? Who knows it all? Even if you don't explicitly ask what is "best", it is certainly implied that you want whoever answers the questions to supply information that they believe to be the best, as opposed to information that they believe to be the worst.

[stax76]

If you say this or that is best there are good chances that many don't agree and even be pissed of so best should be used carefully. If you for ask for instance 'what are good solutions to this particular problem' followed by a detailed problem description you will get much better results in particularly from people that give you various solutions with details and how they compare because that people actually bothered to evaluate different solutions.

[MaximRecoil]

If you say this or that is best there are good chances that many don't agree and even be pissed of so best should be used carefully. If you for ask for instance 'what are good solutions to this particular problem' followed by a detailed problem description you will get much better results in particularly from people that give you various solutions with details and how they compare because that people actually bothered to evaluate different solutions.
I'll agree with that.

I still believe that debates among knowledgeable people regarding what is best = highly informative threads.

[Doom9]

I still believe that debates among knowledgeable people regarding what is best = highly informative threads.and there's plenty of that going around, rule12 notwithstanding.
And even though I'm debating here, that doesn't mean I have the slightest intention of changing rule12.

[GrofLuigi]

Rule 12 is the best! :p

Now seriously, although I generally support it, I think there are same areas where there's no competition at the top. Example: who would dare to say that VirtualDub, DGIndex, Avisynth are not the best? Of course, situation changes over time, but IMHO enforcement of R12 could be a little less strict (i.e. only a warning/explanation to a nobee).

GL

[Doom9]

i.e. only a warning/explanation to a nobeeIt is done like that.. but if the warned mucks up when we're cutting them some slack, the gloves come off..

[MaximRecoil]

Normally I would continue a debate like this until the cows come home, but normally I am not debating with the owner of the forum, but rather with another member, making the forum neutral for all intents and purposes.

On logical grounds, this would be a good debate to continue.

But for practical reasons, I am going to be quiet on the subject now.

[setarip_old]

I've seen other forums that automatically replace part of a post (usually software registration/serial number information) with a standard string (e.g. "Serial number removed").

I'd speculate (since I don't know anything about the programming of these forums) that it would be relatively easy to utilize a similar concept here, so that any Thread Subject that includes the phrase "the best" would automatically have it replaced by the phrase "a good" (Perhaps even in BOLD RED letters)- and then people could get on with posting responses.

I'm guessing that when the threadstarter sees the change made to his/her subject, avoidance of using the phrase "the best" will register in his/her mind for future reference...

[neuron2]

who would dare to say that VirtualDub, DGIndex, Avisynth are not the best? Take DGIndex. For an absolute newbie, that might not be the "best" solution for a given chore. Best *for him* might be some one-click solution. Again, it comes down to the individual and his situation.

[MaximRecoil]

Take DGIndex. For an absolute newbie, that might not be the "best" solution for a given chore. Best *for him* might be some one-click solution. Again, it comes down to the individual and his situation.That's why parameters are an integral part of any statement of "best". Best "for him" = a different parameter than best for results, best for speed, best for whatever.
[...](no, decoding to wav and using in AviSynth doesn't count.. for starters audio encoders generally don't support AviSynth input, and there's no solution for 5.1 audio plus BeSweet is simply the best audio encoding tool and the audio functionality in AviSynth just cannot compete), cutting support in dgindex does make a lot of sense.
I wasn't planning to post any more on this thread but now there are new replies...

[neuron2]

Even Doom9 has not yet reached perfection. :)