MeGUI guide discussion

[Richard Berg]

For Free AAC (FAAC) encoding, bse_FAAC.dll and faac.exe must be in the BeSweet folder. Get these from <I don't know where -- must fix>
I remember I got them from the BeLight package.

[burgerpardis]

thanks for the guide! :D

[berrinam]

I remember I got them from the BeLight package.
Does that mean that the entire package is required for MeGUI?

[Richard Berg]

Why do you say that? I'm just suggesting a place where people can get those 2 files. If someone wants to extract them from the BeLight download and post them separately, great, but until then a bloated download is better than nothing.

[burgerpardis]

faac.exe and bse_FAAC.dll are here: http://www.savefile.com/files/1617381

[Richard Berg]

FAAC is the easy part. Your zip is missing the besweet plugin.

[berrinam]

Ok, I've updated the audio section to use the BeLight package instead of the BeSweet package.

[burgerpardis]

ok, edited.

[klicker4546]

Thank you so much for this guide. Since MEGui development is going on pretty fast, I'm lucky that I found this. :)

[Morte66]

Thank you for the guide, Berrinam. I spent 20 minute typing a post for the "general questions" thread, and then your guide popped up and solved it. :) If this had been around two weeks ago it would have saved me hours, and half a dozen discarded jobs. Hopefully, it will do that for others.

I have a couple of questions/suggestions:

a) Some clue as to the syntax of the AVS profile editor would be nice. You really need to master this if you want to use the One Click Encoder in anger. It was easy once I worked out how, but it took a couple of hours' trial and error to get it. You need to know that to create a script like this:
LoadPlugin("C:\Program Files\DGMPGDec\DGDecode.dll")
LoadPlugin("C:\Program Files\AviSynth 2.5\plugins\FluxSmooth.dll")
mpeg2source("D:\DVD\THE_SHIELD\VTS_03_1.d2v")
FluxSmoothST(10,15)
... you need a template like this:
LoadPlugin("C:\Program Files\DGMPGDec\DGDecode.dll")
LoadPlugin("C:\Program Files\AviSynth 2.5\plugins\FluxSmooth.dll")
<input>
FluxSmoothST(10,15)
... and then it's easy to do simple stuff.

b) In the One Click Encoder section, you say "Automatic Deinterlacing automatically detects the source, and inserts the best deinterlacing filter accordingly. This is recommended". This seems to contradict what Doom9 said in reply to this (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=772990#post772990). I think something needs to be resolved and/or clarified.

[Doom9]

his seems to contradict what Doom9 said in reply to this. I think something needs to be resolved and/or clarified.No it does not.. I was unaware that you're using the one click encoder. In that case, it makes sense that this check will always be run.. automatic force film is always performed (well.. the check is.. if your movie is 80% film unless you've configured megui to apply force film with that film percentage the method does nothing), so the interlace detector should detect the movie as progressive and not perform any changes.

[berrinam]

a) Some clue as to the syntax of the AVS profile editor would be nice. You really need to master this if you want to use the One Click Encoder in anger. It was easy once I worked out how, but it took a couple of hours' trial and error to get it.Well, I thought it was obvious enough, but that's because I wrote it:p See if you like what I wrote now (not that you can tell, now that you know how to use it too....)

[Morte66]

Well, I thought it was obvious enough, but that's because I wrote it:p See if you like what I wrote now (not that you can tell, now that you know how to use it too....)

I think that is pretty good, enough to let people know what they could/should be trying to do (which is the scope of this guide). When I first looked at AVS profiles, I tried doing things like altering "<denoise>" to "<denoise>FluxSmooth(10,15)</denoise>". I wouldn't do that after reading the guide.

[By the way, I'm starting to realise that the way MeGUI uses interoperating profiles for AVS, OCE, Video Encode, Sound Encode etc is very cool. I can choose some grain-removing AVS profile to suit my friend's B&W DVD, then pick an Xvid AS5 encoder profile instead of my usual x264 HP CQ22 so it'll work in his standalone, and generally mix and match for most things I'd want to do. It's much more elegant than monolithic global settings files, or about 40 individual settings. Props to the team.]

[berrinam]

Kurtnoise was generous enough to repackage faac.exe and bse_faac.dll on the corecodec website, so I have now linked to that.

I saw your link, burgerpardis, but I didn't use it, because I don't think a temporary hosting solution like savefile is really appropritae for such a guide.

[burgerpardis]

I understand, I'm not able to use permenant file hosting. I was just trying to help. :)

[berrinam]

I've run out of space for one post, so I had to split it. Would it be possible for a mod to reorganise the posts so they are consecutive (I don't know what you guys can do, but it's worth asking)?

[Doom9]

hmm.. there's no post reordering.. posts always show up in the order in which they were first submitted.

@edit: perhaps you could put it into a html guide and post on the megui webspace when I can figure out how to give you access to it (if you don't already have access.. I'm pretty darned clueless about sf.. making commits is already a huge achievement to me)

[foxyshadis]

Move all non-guide posts to a new thread?

[Richard Berg]

@Doom9 -- in my experience, SF webspace is even slower & more painful than SF source control. After December's outage I massively upgraded the avisynth.org server's bandwidth...let's use it :)

[Doom9]

Are you thinking of just the guide, or the whole shebang (daily megui builds and the latest software we recomment for the auto-update)?

[Richard Berg]

Whatever you want.

[berrinam]

Have a look here:
http://megui.sourceforge.net/
which links to
http://megui.sourceforge.net/megui-guide.html

[ChronoCross]

I'm keeping this directory listable so you can just grab new compiles as they become available.

MeGUI Unofficial Builds (http://www.chronocrossdev.com/apps/megui/)

[burgerpardis]

I've run out of space for one post, so I had to split it. Would it be possible for a mod to reorganise the posts so they are consecutive (I don't know what you guys can do, but it's worth asking)?
Maybe have a megui guide dsscusion thread, then the megui guide in a locked sticky?

[sjchmura]

So yo use the new AVISYnth Audio features must I demux on my own and setup a seperate "thing to do"????? Autoencode will NOT work??

Which AVISynth filters do I need to get started wtih AC3/DTS -> AAC 5.1??

[Doom9]

Unfortunately, if a thread is locked, nobody can post.. not even a mod and berrinam would always have to ask me to unlock the thread to make any edits.
Autoencode will NOT work??No, it will work just fine. Everything works as it always has.. if you don't look too closely at the audio configuration dialog, you won't even notice there's something new.. it's but a radio box that allows you to switch between avisynth (the default) and besweet.
Which AVISynth filters do I need to get started wtih AC3/DTS -> AAC 5.1??berrinam wrote an excellent guide (it's in this very thread even).. read it and do what it tells you.

[sjchmura]

I rea dit - it was INCREDIBLE - I saw the part about it being a "new feature" but did not see which filters to download - will do that now.

IN summary do you think the QUALITY of the DTS/AC3 5.1->HE-AAC 5.1 is superior or just that, as you mentioned, it will make better use of my X2?

Thanks!!!

Steve

[Doom9]

The encoder stays the same so how could the output be any different?
The advantage is better CPU usage for dual core chips, and in the future seamless frame-accurate cutting.

[Richard Berg]

The encoder stays the same so how could the output be any different?
The advantage is better CPU usage for dual core chips, and in the future seamless frame-accurate cutting.
We should ask if the source for avsFilmCutter (http://members.aol.com/avsfilmcutter/) is available. It has most of the cutting features we want.

[stax76]

We should ask if the source for avsFilmCutter is available. It has most of the cutting features we want.


There is some simple code available if VB .NET is not to scary for you C# guys. ;)

http://www.planetdvb.net/staxrip/screenshots/003.png
http://www.planetdvb.net/staxrip/screenshots/037.png
http://www.planetdvb.net/staxrip/screenshots/038.png

[Richard Berg]

I was mostly interested in his code for automatically generating transition effects from cuts, but thanks -- I'm sure we'll "borrow" from you as well :)

I actually haven't tried any Avisynth-based editors except AVSEdit (which was way too slow). Need to sit down with the top 5 tools and decide which features/interfaces I like best before deciding on anything.

[Doom9]

well.. all I really car is [In] and [Out] so it comes down to an interface that looks and behaves just like the zone creator. I don't mean for megui to become an nle.

[fight2win]

i wanted to ask somethings, will sharktooth's profiles work with bobor's cli builds, and do cqm's work with bobor's builds?

[Doom9]

will sharktooth's profiles work with bobor's cli buildsOnly if they don't use any of the non CVS options.. anything that uses subme 7 or aq will cause at least an exception when you try to access the codec configuration dialog.
do cqm's work with bobor's builds?
Yes
And you could've figured out the answer to both with a little effort on your part..

[Richard Berg]

I don't mean for megui to become an nle.
Me neither. But it couldn't hurt if, while editing out commercials, you had the option to use a transition. Most of the time you can use the studio's fades to cut from blackness to blackness, but often you have to make a hard cut from scene to scene; a simple transition would make it look much cleaner.

[berrinam]

My thoughts on cutting GUIs, which I posted in the DVD2AVI forum (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=776324#post776324): As to the cutting GUI: I've tried ProjectX, VDubMod and Mpeg2Schnitt. I really don't mind whether multiselect is used or not. I find VDubMod the best because:
-it previews much faster than ProjectX or Mpeg2Schnitt (this is probably because it is using an already-indexed source and it is written C++, not Java)
-it jumps by frames of 50 when pressing the seek bar. This may not seem like much, but it certainly speeds up finding the correct frame, because the accuracy of the slider is very low, so making big jumps makes it easy to get where you want.
-it has the scene change detection buttons, which are great for finding the exact frame, and they run very fast.

[Doom9]

-it has the scene change detection buttons, which are great for finding the exact frame, and they run very fast.Don't you mean "jump to I-frame"? Hmm.. just realized there's such a feature. But if you want to write an SCD for megui.. be my guest ;)

[fight2win]

Only if they don't use any of the non CVS options.. anything that uses subme 7 or aq will cause at least an exception when you try to access the codec configuration dialog.

Yes
And you could've figured out the answer to both with a little effort on your part..

i'm a lazy boy, i thought u wud have figured it by now!

[berrinam]

But if you want to write an SCD for megui.. be my guest ;)Well.... I was hoping that someone with more C++ experience, like dimzon, could integrate it into a dll, so that it would run faster;) . All that needs to be done is, for each pixel, take the absolute difference from the same pixel in the previous frame, and sum all of these up, and then take a threshold.

[snobs]

hmmm... seems to me like http://www.chronocrossdev.com is down... has anybody mirrored his site or at least is able to contribute the cvs binary builds somewhere else?

thanks in advance. ;)

ps: sorry for posting that in the wrong place at first

[ChronoCross]

try going directly to the builds.

http://chronocrossdev.com/apps/megui/

The only thing I can think of that would prevent you from getting there is that your computer/ip was banned from my datacenter for DDos. Other than that it hasn't been down in a few weeks.

[dimzon]

Don't you mean "jump to I-frame"? Hmm.. just realized there's such a feature. But if you want to write an SCD for megui.. be my guest ;)
It's definitly possible. Unfortunally it must be written in unmanaged native code (i know C++ but I hate it) to avoid speed issues and it must work in YV12 colorspace directly. I can add such functionality to my AvisynthWrappwer.dll later (not in this month definitly). In other case we can ask Incredible to implement it - seems like he has strong enought C++ knowledge.

[snobs]

i am sorry to say that, but from my place it just doesn't work. every access to your domain ends in a '500 Internal Server Error'... (eitherway if i try firefox, opera or just the internet explorer...)
since you said i possibly could be in a banned ip-range, i tried accessing your site from a linux server i have remote access to... *tadaaa* it works. but the weird thing is the kind of error i get @home, or is that just the way the server replies upon a banned ip?

Internal Server Error

The server encountered an internal error or misconfiguration and was unable to complete your request.

Please contact the server administrator, webmaster@sharktech.net and inform them of the time the error occurred, and anything you might have done that may have caused the error.

More information about this error may be available in the server error log.
NOYB Server at chronocrossdev.com Port 80

ps: since i have a possibility now to access these wanted files, i will stop to annoy you, but if i can be of any help in solving this problem... i will!

edit: i just tested it using a proxy (so i had a totally different ip)... and see there: it worked again. so i am convinced now that it is the ip-banning you were talking about. which isn't the best solution... IMHO

[ChronoCross]

edit: i just tested it using a proxy (so i had a totally different ip)... and see there: it worked again. so i am convinced now that it is the ip-banning you were talking about. which isn't the best solution... IMHO

yeah I understand. I don't own the server only the hosting I have on there. The reason they've been doing some banning and extensive filtering is due to the number of dos attacks recently on the ISP from a very specific range. That's about all my investigation told me as the admin wouldn't release any further details on the situation. Sorry for any inconvienience this may have caused.

[snobs]

*whoooo* i never meant to discourage you, or to impair your efforts in this project in any way. please, don't understand it that way.

at last my (very own?) problem is solved - that's what i wanted and therefore thank you! ;)

[dimzon]

Russian MeGUI guide (little outdated) is here: http://www.dvdtocd.narod.ru/megui.htm

[berrinam]

It's definitly possible. Unfortunally it must be written in unmanaged native code (i know C++ but I hate it) to avoid speed issues and it must work in YV12 colorspace directly. I can add such functionality to my AvisynthWrappwer.dll later (not in this month definitly). In other case we can ask Incredible to implement it - seems like he has strong enought C++ knowledge.
Actually, I just realised a much simpler way: use AviSynth to do the scene change detection for you. I haven't worked out the exact script, but it use one of AviSynth's conditional scripting functions, like the following:

(some input)
white = Blankclip(white) #pseudo-code
black = blankclip(black) #pseudo-code
conditionalfilter(inputclip, white, black, "YDifferenceFromPrevious*0.5 + UDifferenceFromPrevious*.25 + VDifferenceFromPrevious*.25", "<", ".5")

This would (with the actual code written properly, and good adjustment of the threshold) return a black clip for a scene change, and a white clip for the rest. So all that would need to be done in C# is to look at the color of one pixel. Actually, that could be done in C++.

Perhaps we can also use AviSynth filters for other things currently done in C#, like resizing and cropping in the preview window...

[dimzon]

@berrinam
Does You really need SCD ASAP? If not I strongly prefer to write SCD in C++ (for better performance)

[berrinam]

@berrinam
Does You really need SCD ASAP?No, it was just another idea that came to me.
If not I strongly prefer to write SCD in C++ (for better performance)
I don't see why your C++ code would be faster than Assembly-optimized AviSynth code.

Also, isn't it a good idea for each module to do what it is best at? AviSynth is designed for video processing, and it is very easy to do SCD in it, so why write extra code specifically for MeGUI?

PS. If you want to continue this discussion, we should probably head over to the dev thread.

[milldakill]

Is there a guide on how to make profiles? I need to setup an audio profile and I have no idea how to do it.

edit: This MeGUI stuff is very frustrating, Is there a detailed guide that has all the steps needed to do a "one click encode" from beginning to end?

[Doom9]

Hmm... I thought profiles were pretty self explanatory. You need to configure a codec to create a profile, hence profiles are created at the place where you configure a codec. So, select your (audio) codec, press the appropriate config file, configure whatever needs configuring, type a name in the profile dropdown, press new and you have your profile.

[milldakill]

Hmm... I thought profiles were pretty self explanatory. You need to configure a codec to create a profile, hence profiles are created at the place where you configure a codec. So, select your (audio) codec, press the appropriate config file, configure whatever needs configuring, type a name in the profile dropdown, press new and you have your profile.

Thanks I got it now, to me as a first time use this is a little confusing. Maybe I am just retarded but I would put profile creation tools in the tool menu and then always require the user to select which profile they want to use for the encoding no matter the method. As it is set up you can only make a profile if you are trying to encoding using one of the longer methods. I just wanted to use the one click encoder and I was really lost on how to make the profiles necessary to do that.

[Doom9]

As it is set up you can only make a profile if you are trying to encoding using one of the longer methods.That's not really true.. but to create a profile (and that's as logic as it can get) you have to configure the profile.. and you do that at the place where you configure the codec. Doing it anywhere else would be unlogic and stupid from a coding point of view.. you'd be having the same thing twice and that's never a good thing.

[milldakill]

That's not really true.. but to create a profile (and that's as logic as it can get) you have to configure the profile.. and you do that at the place where you configure the codec. Doing it anywhere else would be unlogic and stupid from a coding point of view.. you'd be having the same thing twice and that's never a good thing.

I am pretty new to this project so like I said this might be retarded but if someone wants to use the "one click encoder" I think they might end up getting lost where I did. You go to "configure one click encoder" and all you see are a bunch of blank areas where you select the profiles. Then you are like "how do I make a profile" and the last place I thought to look was on the screen for one of the longer methods. Maybe add the configure codec buttons inside the "configure one click" tool?

[Doom9]

but if someone wants to use the "one click encoder" I think they might end up getting lost where I did.With that, I fully agree.
Maybe add the configure codec buttons inside the "configure one click" tool?The problem is there are so many profile types, it would simply overload the one clicker.. plus of course it would be duplicating code again as all that functionality is available elsewhere. There's an open point in the todo list that involves a redesign to make things more user-friendly (or rather: n00b friendly since I think it's quite userfriendly for those going the traditional route of doing things one step after another), but nobody has come up with a really great idea for that.

[chipzoller]

This looks like it has become the unofficial support thread, so if this question I post is inappropriate, please do move it.

I have several AVIs I ripped from my DVDs (complete James Bond special editions) all of whose fps is 23.976. I know FFMpeg and any apps based on this have problems with this because it doesn't understand frame rates past the hundredths place, but I seem to be getting sync issues in my muxed MP4 file. When I created the AVS script the frame rate was listed at 23.975....and fiddy thousand more places afterwards and had sync issues (the video is slower than the audio) and so manually changed the script to 23.976 with no difference.

Here is the original script:

DirectShowSource("F:\Bond Movies\Diamonds are Forever.avi",fps=23.9759856527702,audio=false)
#blank deinterlace line
#crop
LanczosResize(320,176) # Lanczos (Sharp)
#denoise


I would gladly re-rip straight into a d2v project file except the DVDs aren't currently with me. Also, I encoded these long ago with DivX 4.x and verified the frame rate with Gspot and through a media player.

Does this sound familiar to anyone?


Second topic:


When creating an AVS script from the tool (assuming AVI input and MP3 audio interleaved), is it not possible to have MeGUI demux these two and then automatically load as video and audio sources?

or secondly...

Is it just my misfortune that MeGUI will not accept MP3 as source audio for an MP4 file (transcoded to AAC, of course)?

thanks

[berrinam]

This looks like it has become the unofficial support thread, so if this question I post is inappropriate, please do move it.Actually, you might be looking for the 'MeGUI Troubleshooting thread' or something like that, but never mind....

I have several AVIs I ripped from my DVDs (complete James Bond special editions) all of whose fps is 23.976. I know FFMpeg and any apps based on this have problems with this because it doesn't understand frame rates past the hundredths place, but I seem to be getting sync issues in my muxed MP4 file. When I created the AVS script the frame rate was listed at 23.975....and fiddy thousand more places afterwards and had sync issues (the video is slower than the audio) and so manually changed the script to 23.976 with no difference.No idea what's up here.

When creating an AVS script from the tool (assuming AVI input and MP3 audio interleaved), is it not possible to have MeGUI demux these two and then automatically load as video and audio sources?No need to demux. You can encode audio straight from avi just by selecting it as the audio source in the main window.

Is it just my misfortune that MeGUI will not accept MP3 as source audio for an MP4 file (transcoded to AAC, of course)?MP3 is also fine.

[chipzoller]

You might not have caught the script example I posted. Does it look normal?

[berrinam]

You might not have caught the script example I posted. Does it look normal?
I can't see anything wrong with it other than the wrong fps that you mentioned. I don't know so much about encoding from avi though.....

[chipzoller]

Well, I'm just now doing another test on a source that has frame rate of 29.97, and the script shows:
fps=29.97000002997
granted, this is a super-tiny deviation from 29.97, but I wonder if this the derived frame rate is supposed to be this way or if it indicates a problem in that routine?

Also, can you explain what the "audio=false" means?

No need to demux. You can encode audio straight from avi just by selecting it as the audio source in the main window.

Yes, I see that now. When I first tried it I guess I didn't have a few needed files so it was crashing on me.

[greggerm]

Back on topic...

Regarding the MeGUI guide -

I think it might be in the guide's best interest if we add mentions for the newly required AviSynth DLLs which are now being used. After recently updating to 2119, my (One Click) encodes failed because it was looking for a ColorMatrix function (colormatrix.dll) as well as another .dll which seemed like it was needed for deinterlacing.

They were easy to find after a quick google search, but someone who doesn't quite know that an AVISynth "function" may be based on a .dll library could get lost when the error message pops up. After all, not all MeGUI users are well versed in AVISynth like many others... :)

-Greg

[berrinam]

Fixed. I added EEDI2 and ColorMatrix

[Carpo]

ok this may be in the wrong place but seeing as its about the megui guide i thought iwas a good a place as any.

here goes

i have mainly used GK for making my files - but have since moved over to megui - in GK you had the option of resizing the screen before/after the compresability check - which gave you a rough idear of what size res your vid could be before it looks out of shape (aspect)

is there anyway of figuring out what aspect would be good per film as GK used to do or can you just use anything you want ?

[CobraX]

Since Nero 7.2.0.3 the AAC encoder has been rewritten from scratch. But how do you use this encoder in MeGUI? In the MeGUI guide you find this explanation:

neroraw.exe is used for Nero AAC encoding. Extract neroraw.exe and bsn.dll and point MeGUI to neroraw.exe. You also need Nero's dlls (aac.dll and aacenc32.dll) in the same directory. aacenc32.dll and aac.dll are distributed with Nero. If you have Nero installed, you should find them in c:\program files\common files\ahead\AudioPlugins. If you are using Nero version 6 dlls, tick the checkbox that says "I'm using Nero6 AAC Dll's to encode". If you are using Nero version 7 DLLs, you also need to copy MFC71.dll to your neroraw path. You'll find it in c:\program files\common files\ahead\lib.

Please note that version v4.2.0.27 of aacenc32.dll is not supported, as it is buggy. To find out what version you have, right click on the file, go to properties, version, and it will say there.

The problem is that there is no aac.dll with the new nero (or at least I couldn't find it there).

[berrinam]

is there anyway of figuring out what aspect would be good per film as GK used to do or can you just use anything you want ?I don't know what you mean, but perhaps you are asking for the previewer in the AviSynth script creator to show the resizing you are doing, like GK does? In terms of finding the correct aspect ratio, you shouldn't need the previewer to do that.... GK did, and it asked you to select the correct AR, but MeGUI can pick it up directly from the d2v file. I don't know what the relevance of the compressibility check is with all of this, though....

With regards to the new nero plugins... well, if it doesn't work the same way as the old thing, then we will probably just have to wait until we get a CLI version of the encoder.

[Carpo]

if you look at the pic i have attachted this may help to shed light on what i was reffering too, with GK if you tried to have either a too high or too low aspect parts of the resolution tab in GK would turn red to highlight this, but if megui picks the right size for then its all good :)

http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/9240/aspect5lt.th.png (http://img136.imageshack.us/my.php?image=aspect5lt.png)

there ya go :)

[berrinam]

Can you post the image on www.imageshack.us ? Thanks.

[Carpo]

on imageshack as requested :)

[berrinam]

So you want the aspect error box, and you want it to turn red when it exceeds 2% ?

Other people have indeed asked for some of these extra GK boxes. As I see it, a lot of them are just a large waste of screen space. An aspect error tag could perhaps be added, but no-one has really given much of a case for it except 'it was in GK'.

I've done a test, and discovered that I can in fact recognise an aspect error of 2%. This was when I focused on a particular face, and I could reliably tell whether it was correct or stretched in x or y. But I also know that I have watched videos in the wrong aspect ratio and it hasn't disturbed me. I think this is the key point that people miss: just because you can recognise the wrong AR if you are looking for it doesn't mean it will bother you if you are watching the film.

There is also another approach for aspect ratios which I think is better: AR signalling. Most people use this so that they can keep the full resolution of their anamorphic source, but you can also use it to fix an encode which has a slightly off aspect ratio, possibly due to mod16 rounding. I think, where possible, this approach is much better, as you can keep your cropping exactly on the borders, and still get a very accurate final aspect ratio.


I will consider adding an aspect error label as there is in GK. Also, when I have the time, I will add AR signalling to all MeGUI-generated scripts, not just the anamorphic ones, for the reason I described above.

[Carpo]

well im not the best in the world when it comes to backing up things :) so any help would be great - but if its gonna take time and effort for something the devs think is a waste then theres no point in making megui bloated :) - i could always learn to detect aspect errors :)

[berrinam]

That's exactly what I was saying: why learn to notice the aspect error? Ignorance is bliss; what you don't know can't hurt you.