LOTR - Extended Versions

[steptoe]

I'm getting the extended versions of all 3 of the LOTR movies shortly, and was wondering what users views are on the number of passes for movie only copies

Just the English soundtrack will be left, no subtitles, no other soundtracks



I've previously read old posts on here that very long length and action movies like this and say Star Wars some say 2-pass is acceptable others suggest 5 or even 6 passes can and do make a difference

Also what matrix people used, is the standard built-in matrices acceptable, most likely I assume it will drop to low bitrate due to the sheer length of the LOTR extended version, these are a minimum of 3 hours plus per film

No I have no intentions of splitting movies across disks, I'm lazy and hate having to get up to change disks

[Knilch]

I would not recommend doing a one-disc DVD-5 backup of LOTR, especially when it comes to the extended version. I've done a 2-pass backup of the original release using CCE (standard matrix) and there is a huge difference in quality (although I didn't perform any optimization). Perhaps you might consider buying a dual layer recordable for your backups!?

[SpazzHH]

No I have no intentions of splitting movies across disks, I'm lazy and hate having to get up to change disks
FYI - With the Extended Editions, the movie already comes split to two discs.

[DK]

using TWO passes with procoder, hc or cce will be fine with LOTR SEE; especialy when only using one audiostream

[markrb]

FYI - With the Extended Editions, the movie already comes split to two discs.

It makes for a very convient bathroom break :eek:

[CrisCr0ss]

and on loTr i would do at least a 6 pass..

[jptheripper]

no way you can put a 4 hour movie on 1 disk and have it be decent quality

[SpazzHH]

and on loTr i would do at least a 6 pass..
Even though the CCE manual says little to no improvement can be expected after the third or fourth pass? How come at least 6?

[Chainmax]

I think I read a couple of posts saying that the default matrix is quite bad. Amnon82 once suggested me to try his AVAMAT6 matrix saying that he recommends it for encodes with average bitrates in the 3000-7500kbps range. You might also want to use some slight denoising (Removegrain or FFT3DFilter) to improve compressibility.

[Chainmax]

no way you can put a 4 hour movie on 1 disk and have it be decent quality

Well, he can downsize to Half-D1...

By the way, isn't SpazzHH right? The manual does say that.

[DK]

and on loTr i would do at least a 6 pass..

complete overkill for this 2 dvd set

[steptoe]

I did buy a dual-layer media once for Das Boot which comes on two disks and is roughly 4 hours long

It failed the burn, so that was £5 down the pan, so haven't touched them since

I know you can no wget them cheaper, but its still around £3 a blank, which if it goes screwy its a lot to waste to get it right, then there is the problem of the standalone actually accepting duel-layer media

[ljpp]

Even though the CCE manual says little to no improvement can be expected after the third or fourth pass? How come at least 6?

Back in the days when LOTR-TT theatre version came on DVD I tested all kinds of DVD compressors with it. Back then I used dvd2dvd-r as a frontend for my CCE tests.

My tests weren't too scientific, and I perhaps did not have sufficient knowledge while doing the tests. I watched the beginning scene (Balrog & Gandalf falling), the Ent meeting, and the final battle. In Balrog-scene I watched for macroblocks of the flames. In ent scene I looked at the texture of ents. In fight scene I looked at the haze clouds, rainfall, overall messyness of the rainy scenes, and raindrops hitting the caste walls (just before the fight starts, the king & co. standing on the wall worried).

My conclusion was back then that I was able to reduce macroblocks by adding passes. Therefore I went as high as 8-12. I thought they made most difference in the balrog scene. I definitely would not settle for 2-pass.

This raises an interesting question - DVD2DVD-R treats the whole movie as one, while DVD-RB encodes in short segments. Doesn't this segmented encoding reduce the efficiency of VBR? Can CCE (or other encoders) efficiently use the VBR to distribute bits over a 2,5h movie, placing them optimally and therefore benefit over the DVD-RB method?

[jdobbs]

No. That's a point that was debated and put to rest long ago. It is covered by dynamic bitrate allocation.

One advantage of encoding from a MPEG source is that the bit allocation has already been done once during the original encode. DVD-RB performs a scan of the original source during PREPARE and uses information collected to determine allocation used for encoding.

Frankly, though, even if that weren't the case -- the size of a segment is typically large enough to provide the encoding diversity necessary for VBR bitrate distribution anyway. But dynamic bitrate allocations covers the base just in case.

[Observer]

I put The fellowship of the ring EE on a single DVD-R two years ago and the result was OK. Movie only, cut out the end credits, kept one audio track. CCE 3 pass VBR with an average bitrate around 2730 kbits/s if I remember correctly and std MPEG matrix (this was before custom matrixes became popular on doom9). The two towers EE also came out ok using the same method but with a little more noise.
I gave up on Return of the King EE because the average bitrate seemed to low but it may work out better with a custom matrix.

[RaistlinMajere]

You might consider doing what I did for the trilogy. Keeping the film only I kept the audio and subtitles I needed (both the forced and optional subtitles are in the first subtitle choice in ifoedit 0x80), cut the 15 minutes of purely fanclub member names from the end credits of each film, joined the two halfs of each film, re-authored them with dvd-rb to a dual layer size (I had to author the 2 halfs separately in rotk due to it been over 9gb ie VTS_01_10.VOB is a no go) and burnt them to dual layer discs. The average bitrate was about 5000 for the largest of the 3 rotk if i remeber rightly (it was something like 85% compression). The quality is absolutely dogsbits and I don't have to swop discs in the middle.

For anyone trying this with a sony standalone dvd player, nero and the minus dual layer discs give an absolutely flawless layer change, not even the slightest pause. Cost me about £20 in discs to find this was the best combo though lol

forgot to mention, i did it with 3 passes, anymore is a waste. standard maxtrix

oh becareful with the fellowship as the join seems tricky. An error in the original vob or something. My advice is to make sure you check the sound sync and layer change throughly before burning.

[feedback]

I think I read a couple of posts saying that the default matrix is quite bad. Amnon82 once suggested me to try his AVAMAT6 matrix saying that he recommends it for encodes with average bitrates in the 3000-7500kbps range. You might also want to use some slight denoising (Removegrain or FFT3DFilter) to improve compressibility.
I definitely wouldn't use the standard matrix on that big movie on a single layer disk.

You will see an improvement with AVAMAT6 or BDVD matrix or you may want to try the Matrices Compilation with the descriptions manono added with the average bitrates indicated in Rebuilder Matrix Editor.

Regards,:)

[Miras]

Last DVD with extras:
"-----------------
[21:12:54] Phase I, PREPARATION started.
- CCE SP UNKNOWN encoder selected.
- VTS_01: 896*740 sectors.
-- Scanning and writing .D2V & .AVS files
-- Processed 90*020 frames.
-- Building .AVS and .ECL files
- VTS_02: 423*014 sectors.
-- Scanning and writing .D2V & .AVS files
-- Processed 43*652 frames.
-- Building .AVS and .ECL files
- VTS_03: 593*462 sectors.
-- Scanning and writing .D2V & .AVS files
[21:15:19] 00002 00009 -- error attempting to read from source.
- Processed -3*138*292,8MB ILVU section...
-- Embedded null records found
- PREPARE aborted."

[Rippraff]

- CCE SP UNKNOWN encoder selected.
RB can't work without an encoder. ;)
Maybe you should try it with installer version.

Cu Rippraff

[jdobbs]

That can only happen if you have a corrupt source directory. Check the directory and make sure there aren't any extraneous files in it.

[Miras]

Dir LOTR_RETURN_OF_THE_KING_SEE_D3
VIDEO_TS BUP 22 528
VIDEO_TS IFO 22 528
VIDEO_TS VOB 3 700 736
VTS_01_0 BUP 63 488
VTS_01_0 IFO 63 488
VTS_01_0 VOB 60 305 408
VTS_01_1 VOB 1 073 612 800
VTS_01_2 VOB 762 910 720
VTS_02_0 BUP 36 864
VTS_02_0 IFO 36 864
VTS_02_0 VOB 4 347 904
VTS_02_1 VOB 866 332 672
VTS_03_0 BUP 43 008
VTS_03_0 IFO 43 008
VTS_03_0 VOB 20 412 416
VTS_03_1 VOB 1 073 305 600
VTS_03_2 VOB 142 104 576
VTS_04_0 BUP 32 768
VTS_04_0 IFO 32 768
VTS_04_0 VOB 1 587 200
VTS_04_1 VOB 530 370 560
VTS_05_0 BUP 90 112
VTS_05_0 IFO 90 112
VTS_05_0 VOB 4 771 840
VTS_05_1 VOB 1 073 653 760
VTS_05_2 VOB 1 073 182 720
VTS_05_3 VOB 1 073 702 912
VTS_05_4 VOB 409 356 288
VTS_06_0 BUP 303 104
VTS_06_0 IFO 303 104
VTS_06_0 VOB 18 681 856
VTS_06_1 VOB 321 247 232
VTS_07_0 BUP 18 432
VTS_07_0 IFO 18 432
VTS_07_0 VOB 47 104
VTS_07_1 VOB 10 610 688

CCE - CCE_2.70.02.01 :]

[m1ckran]

@steptoe

Don't forget that if you burn both parts of LOTR SEE onto a single DVD5, you will still have two titles resulting in a pause while the dvd player tracks from one to the other. Chapter navigation will also be split into the two individual parts.

I got round this some time ago by using VobEdit to merge the uncompressed vobs into one set, then used IfoEdit to create new ifo's. I'm not sure how Rebuilder will cope with this kind of mucking about, but DVD Shrink managed it.

Having said that, Shrink refused with the 5.1 soundtrack. Fortunately LOTR SEE comes with three alternatives: DTS 6.1, Dolby 5.1 and Dolby stereo, at least in the UK. Use the stereo soundtrack to maximise video space.

My backups were certainly watchable using Shrink, though a bit grainy. I was quite pleased with myself because it was my first real project. It would be interesting to see Rebuilders output.

One final thing to bear in mind. Since I produced my DVD5 versions of all three films, I have not yet managed to watch any of them in one sitting. They're just too long for comfort!

[GOPPER]

First I read two different things:

It's comming on 1 disc or already splitted up on 2 ????

My finding with the normal LOTR edition was that the blockiness in the falling Gandalf scnes is hard to get right.....

Why, becuase they were on the original when the scene STARTED, looking at the tail of the beast.......

By the way I consider 2 hours DTS,5.1 the max.

3 hours 5.1,2 i already split up to two discs in preference.

But 3 hours 5.1 is watchable even with CCE.

Just use the Very Low Bitrate matrix, or Angel best Very Low, and use UNDOT().DEEN() as filters.

You'll get a smoother movie but it's watchable.....

Of course do a movie only backup.

In case of longer then 3 hours so say 4, it's impossible to get a watchable copy...........

And doing more than 3 CCE passes would't help. I tried it, and it's just overkill IMO.

By the way, I have also split up backups of the LOTR movies that lasts about 3 hour. The quality is unbeatable. With DVD-REMAKE-PRO you can even make a nice ending clip (still frame) that says "Put Next disc in".

I consider a 2+ hour movie to be the maximum for reatining quality.

And when DTS comes in 2 hours is absolute max.

Peter

[steptoe]

You don't get any pauses with my method of joining a split DVD

I use DVD2One, in 'Join' mode, first choose your directory where the first DVD has been ripped, select next when in join mode, choose the directory where the 2nd DVD has been ripped

Make sure you choose a silly custom size, say 12GB, and simply recreate the DVD in movie only mode with the seamless option set, so it basically joins the two DVD's together with no pauses at all

I did this with Stephen Kings IT which is on two DVD's, plays perfectly and is watchable, with no pauses where the movie was originally split

But then again I don't have a wall size HDTV or Plasma screen, just a humble 21" TV, so to me it would look fine !

[GOPPER]

You don't get any pauses with my method of joining a split DVD

I use DVD2One, in 'Join' mode, first choose your directory where the first DVD has been ripped, select next when in join mode, choose the directory where the 2nd DVD has been ripped

Make sure you choose a silly custom size, say 12GB, and simply recreate the DVD in movie only mode with the seamless option set, so it basically joins the two DVD's together with no pauses at all

I did this with Stephen Kings IT which is on two DVD's, plays perfectly and is watchable, with no pauses where the movie was originally split

But then again I don't have a wall size HDTV or Plasma screen, just a humble 21" TV, so to me it would look fine !



That's the point.......

You now make youre backup.......

And later you might buy a new bigger/better TV set......

That's when I decided to redo all my 'quite good looking' DVDSHRINK stuff......... :)

[m1ckran]

LOTR SEE's come on two discs because they're too big to fit on one DVD9. Some people, myself included, hate the disc-switching process and feel it spoils the flow of the story. Combining both parts into one movie-only DVD5 is a viable proposition and it works but, to be honest, video quality using DVD Shrink is noticeably poorer than when burning to DL. I've done both.

My comments regarding audio were not meant to suggest that one format is any better than another. Merely that by selecting the (much smaller) stereo track only, more of the disc can be devoted to the video.

I think I might repeat the exercise using Rebuilder as an experiment. I'm curious to see how Rebuilder copes with such a severe test. This, I think, is something that will nag me until I've done it, no matter how illogical it might seem to many people. Thanks for the matrix tips.

I'm thinking of replacing my crt tv with something a little more capable, like a 32" or 37" Panasonic Viera. My opinions regarding the quality of compressed material might change soon. Who knows. Fun isn't it?

M1ckran

[Boulder]

My comments regarding audio were not meant to suggest that one format is any better than another. Merely that by selecting the (much smaller) stereo track only, more of the disc can be devoted to the video.

The stereo track is also mixed very well so if you have a Dolby ProLogic II capable receiver and a 5.1 speaker system, you can enjoy very good surround effects.