No tool yet to make a DL backup...

[laserfan]

Ok, I have looked & looked and have yet to find a tool, or set of tools, to make a Dual Layer titleset w/proper layerbreak. I hope someone will read this and say "you're wrong, here's how it's done".

What I am trying to do is pretty simple I think, at least in the context of all the very nice & sophisticated programs available. I want to make a "Movie-Only" dual-layer DVD of Titanic Special Edition. This 3-disc set has the movie separated across two discs, with a fairly ugly/awkward break at the end of the movie playback in Disc 1 saying "Insert Disc 2" or some such.

So what I want to do is to strip-away all the extraneous soundtracks & subtitles, and make a single DL disc with the movie-only from beginning-to-end w/a proper layer break of course. It turns out, after stripping it clean (w/DVD Shrink) that the movie w/DD 5.1 fits ALMOST perfectly on an 8.5GB disc. But I dunno how to make a proper layer break:

1. Merging Titles w/Nero Recode gives you two titles and I-don't-know-what for a layer break. So does DVD Shrink I believe.
2. Joining with VOBedit and repairing IFOs w/IFOedit gives you hosed-up Chapters, and I-don't-know-what for a layer break
3. DVD Remake (I don't own this) touts "keeping menus intact" (apparently isn't for "Movie Only" use) and the docs say nothing about layer break handling
4. DVD Maestro doesn't accept VOBs for input; if it did I understand it helps you find a layer break position
5. DVD Rebuilder Pro (I do have this) will re-encode the whole thing to DVD-9 if I set it up to encode w/in the DVD-9 size parameter, but it doesn't make a new layer break to my knowledge

Ok as I write this it occurs to me I have not tried PgcEdit. So I look there and it appears that it will select a layer break position for me (unfortunately only one option as the movie fills the disc) so I am going to give it a go.

If it works, then I am going to have to give r0lZ a big, sloppy kiss as well as congratulations for being "the only game in town" in re: layer break intelligence. Wish me luck, this is costing me 4 bucks US! ;)

[Aquilonious]

Ok, I have looked & looked and have yet to find a tool, or set of tools, to make a Dual Layer titleset w/proper layerbreak. I hope someone will read this and say "you're wrong, here's how it's done".

So what I want to do is to strip-away all the extraneous soundtracks & subtitles, and make a single DL disc with the movie-only from beginning-to-end w/a proper layer break of course. It turns out, after stripping it clean (w/DVD Shrink) that the movie w/DD 5.1 fits ALMOST perfectly on an 8.5GB disc.

Ok as I write this it occurs to me I have not tried PgcEdit. So I look there and it appears that it will select a layer break position for me (unfortunately only one option as the movie fills the disc) so I am going to give it a go.
You can check out this thread where I posted a very similar question:

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=101072&page=1&pp=20

I backed up Aliens (which is interleaved) to DVD-9. It appears to be ok because I've played back portions of the movie on my hdd using Media Player Classic with no problems. I haven't yet burned it to a DL disc though--that will be the real test.

VobBlanker's an excellent tool to edit out any portions of the movie you don't want. You can edit or blank individual cells of the movie and/or extras. I did this with a few backups to get a higher bitrate on DVD-5.

You can dl it here: http://www.videohelp.com/tools?tool=580

You can backup extras to a separate disc if you so desire: http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=99460

MenuShrink can blank audio or animation of a menu: http://jean.laroche.free.fr/MenuShrink/

Please note that MenuShrink doesn't always work. Rebuilder will usually catch the error but it's safer to open your movie in Pcgedit to verify menu integrity.

[laserfan]

Yeah I posted twice in that thread about DVD-RB's layer break handling, and I think jdobbs more-or-less admitted he didn't know if it would work. So I would, in fact, guess that your Aliens titleset will NOT burn & play properly on a DL disc--the existing layer breaks are unlikely I think to work properly w/the new disc allocations.

I think I know how to remove & blank stuff, thanks. I posted cuz I think the layer break/DL disc issue is under-supported right now.

My PgcEdit/ImgBurn attempt is burning right now. Should know in a bit if it plays smoothly in a set-top player.

[laserfan]

Just looked at my "Titanic" ImgBurn and it worked! There is the usual short pause at the layer break position but it plays-thru just fine on the two STB players I tried it on.

It's not perfect, the transition from Title 1 to Title 2 has a very slight freeze-frame associated with it. I wonder if I could have fixed that w/PgcEdit beforehand, I dunno. But I'd rather NOT use the VOBedit/IfoEdit method of combining titles since you lose Chapters that way--if anyone has a better way to do this let me know.

Aquilonius it seems I misspoke about your Aliens backup--I was thinking at the time about my 2-DVD situation, and your Aliens bu I believe was done from a single DL disc--you just re-did it w/a filter or two I believe. In that case leaving the LB as-was may indeed work just fine--depends I suppose on how "tight" the fit is with a DL disc and whether the re-encode shifted bits enough to matter. I'll watch for your report after you've burned it. What I did is very different--I started w/TWO DL DISCS and so combining them also combined their respective LB instructions (heck I may have other pauses elsewhere in the movie--I haven't watched all 3 hours and 14 minutes of it yet!!!!)

I hope if someone knows a cleaner way to do what I've done here that they will tell me about it!

[jeanl]

Please note that MenuShrink doesn't always work. Rebuilder will usually catch the error but it's safer to open your movie in Pcgedit to verify menu integrity.
Aquilonious, can you expand on that? What do you mean by "doesn't always work"? And which error is it that Rebuilder will catch? If there's a bug in menushrink, you should let me know, and I'll fix it!
Thanks in advance!
jeanl

[r0lZ]

If it works, then I am going to have to give r0lZ a big, sloppy kiss as well as congratulations for being "the only game in town" in re: layer break intelligence. Wish me luck, this is costing me 4 bucks US! ;)Just looked at my "Titanic" ImgBurn and it worked! There is the usual short pause at the layer break position but it plays-thru just fine on the two STB players I tried it on.
http://forum.digital-digest.com/images/smilies/1/asskiss.gif :D

[laserfan]

>>SMACK!!!<<

...and Congratulations and Thank You for getting the layer break thing right! You are the only game in town! :cool:

[Aquilonious]

Aquilonious, can you expand on that? What do you mean by "doesn't always work"? And which error is it that Rebuilder will catch? If there's a bug in menushrink, you should let me know, and I'll fix it!
Thanks in advance!
jeanl
I believe after using MenuShrink on a movie backup I received an error in Nero afterwards, but it's been about a month so I just can't remember what project I was doing (so many projects!) or precisely what the error was.

I just tried MenuShrink on two movie backups--The Aviator and The Right Stuff--with no problems. I will pm you if I do run across a future problem. I certainly don't want to shed a bad light on your program because I use it on a regular basis and except for that one time, it has worked flawlessly for me. Thanks for a wonderfully useful utility! :)

I mentioned PcgEdit because it will usually correct any errors in finds in a menu's structure. I run it after I do all my editing with IFO Editor, VobBlanker and MeunShrink, just as a safeguard.

[jeanl]

Great, let me know if you run into any problem! And using PgcEdit as a final cleanup of the IFOs isn't a bad idea!
Jeanl

[Aquilonious]

Great, let me know if you run into any problem! And using PgcEdit as a final cleanup of the IFOs isn't a bad idea!
Jeanl

Well, I think I may have found a problem in MenuShrink. Every time I shrunk the Star Wars Episode IV menu it wouldn't play back correctly. The intro to the movie would keep looping. It didn't do this before shrinking the menu. But as well, if I altered any part of the movie it would exhibit the same behavior. The movie is multiangled so maybe that's the problem. It never happens on 1 angle movies.

I wish there was a way to easily remove angles. I can remove them through IFO Editor but it's a long, laborious process that doesn't always work.

Perhaps you or someone else can make a tool to remove angles only. I'd be willing to pay for such a tool, but $50 or $35 that DiamdSoft wants for Remake Pro/Standard is simply too much for me.

[jeanl]

Well, I think I may have found a problem in MenuShrink. Every time I shrunk the Star Wars Episode IV menu it wouldn't play back correctly. The intro to the movie would keep looping. It didn't do this before shrinking the menu. But as well, if I altered any part of the movie it would exhibit the same behavior.

This is bad. Was that R1? Can you try again with the latest version of menushrink? I have that DVD, and on R1 I've never seen that problem...
The movie is multiangled so maybe that's the problem. It never happens on 1 angle movies.

No, angles are not allowed in the menu domain, so that can't be it.

I wish there was a way to easily remove angles. I can remove them through IFO Editor but it's a long, laborious process that doesn't always work.

Why do you want to remove angles? It's a can of worms, you're much better off leaving them alone in my humble opinion.

Perhaps you or someone else can make a tool to remove angles only. I'd be willing to pay for such a tool, but $50 or $35 that DiamdSoft wants for Remake Pro/Standard is simply too much for me.
Well you get a lot more than just removing angles with these tools, but I see your point. What would be the motivation for removing angles though? In most movies angles are localized and don't take that much space, right?

jeanl

[Video Dude]

It's not perfect, the transition from Title 1 to Title 2 has a very slight freeze-frame associated with it. I wonder if I could have fixed that w/PgcEdit beforehand, I dunno. But I'd rather NOT use the VOBedit/IfoEdit method of combining titles since you lose Chapters that way--if anyone has a better way to do this let me know.
TMPGEnc DVD Author (trial version will work). It imports DVD video, reads the chapter information from the ifo file and recreates the chapter points. Then use PGCEdit to import the menus. I guess (depending on the dvd) you could even copy the TMPGEnc DVD Author vobs over the old vobs, then fix the structure with PGCEdit.

[r0lZ]

I guess (depending on the dvd) you could even copy the TMPGEnc DVD Author vobs over the old vobs, then fix the structure with PGCEdit.You don't need to do it manually. Just use the Replace VTST Titles function.

[ron spencer]

you know I have to laugh at the layer break thing....really laugh. here is pgcedit, a nice compact program (free) that lets you easily choose the layer break from a number of appropriate spots. Then I look at Gear....which costs alot for the pro versions and YOU have to calculate the layer break from an Excel spreadsheet...what a crock. the big guys could learn a bit from pgcedit

thanks for all this rOLZ, yours has been the biggest leap in DVD authoring along with DVDLab

[r0lZ]

Thanks for your kind words, Ron. :)

[Aquilonious]

Aquilonius it seems I misspoke about your Aliens backup--I was thinking at the time about my 2-DVD situation, and your Aliens bu I believe was done from a single DL disc--you just re-did it w/a filter or two I believe. In that case leaving the LB as-was may indeed work just fine--depends I suppose on how "tight" the fit is with a DL disc and whether the re-encode shifted bits enough to matter. I'll watch for your report after you've burned it. What I did is very different--I started w/TWO DL DISCS and so combining them also combined their respective LB instructions (heck I may have other pauses elsewhere in the movie--I haven't watched all 3 hours and 14 minutes of it yet!!!!)

I hope if someone knows a cleaner way to do what I've done here that they will tell me about it!

I finally did manage to watch the Aliens backup I made the entire way through. As I mentioned to jdobbs, there was only one discrepancy but it may be due to my Philips home player rather than Rebuilder because it plays fine on my pc. You can see the link here:

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=724154#post724154

After more experimentation I've determined that Dust is still the best overall for grain removal, despite its slowness. My second favorite is FFT3D but like GoldDust, it blurs a bit more than PD (Pixiedust) with more loss of detail. Even after applying LimitedSharpen it still (imho) doesn't match the sharpness of Dust.

So for light-moderate grain removal I use PD(2) and for heavy removal I use PD(5). For "extreme" stuff like old analog sources I'll use Mipsmooth (preset="VHS") and LimitedSharpen afterwards, tweaking its strength and smode accordingly.

Through all this experimentation I noticed a particular idiosyncrasy of Dust--if needs "room" to breathe. For example, after applying Dust to a DVD backup that was around 4.33 GB it produces more blocking artifacts. If I "shrink" the source down to around 4.15 GB before applying Dust I don't see much, if any, blocking at all. It took me a while to discover this (after several coasters I might add) but it was worth it.

Let me know how you make out on any additional DVD-9 backups. I know it's hard to experiment because DL discs are still so very expensive, hence that's why we weigh so much the experience of others along with our own.