AVAMAT matrices for DVD-RB & DVD-RB bug

[FredThompson]

Here are AVAMAT6 and AVAMAT7 matrices for DVD-RB. Drop them in the matrix folder.

Discussion of these, especially wrt HC is at http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=99742

My testing shows HC with normal quality and default matrix beats CCE 5-pass for sharpness and smaller/fewer blockiness issues. Run time is a little less and HC is free, bundled with DVD-RB so everyone should have it.

The only thing I've found which gives good results on high motion pro wrestling source is ProCoder. If we're fortunate, these matrices and HC high quality mode will do just as well without filtering. Crossing my fingers and hoping for the best...

Copy these to a text editor and save as:

- 1800-3500 AVAMAT7.mtx
8 16 19 22 26 28 32 38
16 16 22 24 28 32 38 44
19 22 26 28 32 38 44 48
22 22 26 32 38 44 48 54
22 26 32 38 44 48 54 64
26 32 38 44 48 54 64 74
32 38 44 48 54 64 74 84
38 44 48 54 64 74 84 94
16 20 24 28 36 42 46 52
20 24 28 36 42 46 52 58
24 28 36 42 46 52 58 62
28 36 42 46 52 58 62 68
36 42 46 52 58 62 68 78
42 46 52 58 62 68 78 88
46 52 58 62 68 78 88 99
52 58 62 68 78 88 99 99

- 3500-9500 AVAMAT6.mtx
8 16 19 22 26 27 29 34
16 16 22 24 27 29 34 35
19 22 26 27 29 34 35 38
22 22 26 27 29 34 35 40
22 26 27 29 32 35 40 48
26 27 29 32 35 40 48 50
26 27 29 35 40 48 50 60
27 29 35 40 48 50 60 62
16 20 24 28 32 36 40 44
20 24 28 32 36 40 44 48
24 28 32 36 40 44 48 52
28 32 36 40 44 48 52 56
32 36 40 44 48 52 56 58
36 40 44 48 52 56 58 60
40 44 48 52 56 58 60 62
44 48 52 56 58 60 62 62edit: Darn it. DVD-RB Pro menus allow specifying custom matrices but it doesn't use load them into HC using CUSTOMMATRIX!

[feedback]

edit: Darn it. DVD-RB Pro menus allow specifying custom matrices but it doesn't use load them into HC using CUSTOMMATRIX!
@FredThompson
Concerning loading Newly Created Matrices in RB...

To create, I just copy the information to notepad and save it.

I then use the Rebuilder Matrix Editor to import the Matrix text file that you just created then save it with the correct Matrix name.

The new Matrix will then show up in the RB Pro. matrix folder where you can then access it from the 'Advanced Expert Options' to use on the Main feature, Extras etc.

That's the way I have always done it with the RBME with no problems.

Get the RB Matrix Editor Here. (http://dvd-rb.dvd2go.org/modules.php?name=Downloads&d_op=getit&lid=103)


Regards,:)

P.S. I use the HC encoder.

[FredThompson]

Yeah, I did that after seeing your post in 2Cool's thread about matrices for HC.

The problem is DVD-RB won't take a new matrix after phase I. Phase I gives the bit rates but then it's too late to chose a custom matrix.

[Carpo]

so do these work only with HC or are results better if you use them with HC?

I use cce mainly and wouldnt mind giving these a goes but if its nt going to yeild good results may not be much point

[FredThompson]

Matrices are not decoder-dependent. Think of them as a set of instructions telling the encoder what to "throw away" and what to "keep" which are tuned for different types of sources. That's not a perfect explanation.

[Carpo]

but its one i can understand :) - just from your post i thought it sounded like you said HC was better to use with those matricies - i see now it wasnt - and understand a little more :p

[FredThompson]

Oh, well, my experience is 2-pass HC with the default matrix is better than 5-pass CCE for both clarity of image (sharpness) and blockiness in high-motion source. It's also a little faster.

I don't know how to measure how much of an improvement either encoder, HC or CCE, would have with these matrices over the defaults.

If they perform as well as people say, you should have better results using them with CCE than the default matrices of CCE for the intended bitrates. That doesn't mean the output from CCE and HC using identical matrices will be identical. Make sense?

Try both and see what you think. You might stay with CCE, you might move to HC. I use HC for everything except very high-motion interlaced source for which I use ProCoder. That decision was based on comparing HC with the default quality setting, 5-pass CCE and ProCoder. I might switch to HC for everything depending on the result on high-motion interlaced source, these matrices and high-quality encoding. Even if it takes as long as ProCoder, I'll switch because I like free software.

[jdobbs]

Just a correction: The fact that DVD-RB uses the matrices that were selected in Phase 1 is not a bug... that's just the way it works. The same is true for many settings... what if you decide to change the encoder, or the working directory, or some other setting between phase 1 and 2 -- would you expect it to apply to the job you've already prepared or to the next one?

[FredThompson]

Agreed. I started thinking about how the interface might be more protective, i.e., not letting the user change the matrix or, if they did, forcing them to re-run phase I and it gets real messy. Then I started to wonder why we tend to chose matrix after the bitrate is displayed. Realistically, you know the relative bitrate just from looking at the source and target sizes. (Well, it becomes obvious after a few times. 7G->4.3G is going to be "low" bitrate but the 3000 point seems to be considered a deciding factor for many people. I wonder if that's an example of a practice becoming a rule...)

[jdobbs]

Currently DVD-RB determines the bitrate during its prepare scan... and then applies a matrix you select based upon the bitrate at the default and the 3Mbs and 2Mbs points. Any more granularity than that probably gets pointless. Any selection beyond those would probably be based upon a specific kind of source (like animation, CG, etc.)

As for bitrates... most folks overestimate what they think is an acceptable bitrate because of their experience with transcoders and poor encoders. You'll find a large number of original DVDs have encoding averages in the 4Mbs range (using up about 4.6GB of disc for a 2 hour movie after adding two DD5.1 audio languages and a DD2.0 director's comment track) and the remainder is used for extras, etc.

[2COOL]

This is how I set up HC Encoder to use whatever matrices I choose. I don't load it into DVD-RB but into HC. In my HC.INI, I have this.


---------------------------
The following are HC Encoders built-in matrices.
---------------------------
*matrix hc
*matrix notch
*matrix qlb
*matrix jawor1cd ;1500-2500
*matrix bach1 ;1000-1800
*matrix hvsgood
*matrix hvsbetter
*matrix hvsbest
*matrix autoQ2 ; aka AVAMAT7 (Author: Amnon82) 1800-3500

*BIAS 20
---------------------------
This custom matrix command defines custom intra and
non-intramatrices to be used and supersedes the default
matrix (mpeg) and the *MATRIX command. The matrices must
be supplied as shown below, 8 values per line.
---------------------------
*custommatrix ;AVAMAT6 (Author: Amnon82) 3500-9500

8 16 19 22 26 27 29 34
16 16 22 24 27 29 34 35
19 22 26 27 29 34 35 38
22 22 26 27 29 34 35 40
22 26 27 29 32 35 40 48
26 27 29 32 35 40 48 50
26 27 29 35 40 48 50 60
27 29 35 40 48 50 60 62

16 20 24 28 32 36 40 44
20 24 28 32 36 40 44 48
24 28 32 36 40 44 48 52
28 32 36 40 44 48 52 56
32 36 40 44 48 52 56 58
36 40 44 48 52 56 58 60
40 44 48 52 56 58 60 62
44 48 52 56 58 60 62 62

Whatever matrix I use, I just ensure the * is to the far left. In the above setting, I have autoQ2 selected. I'm still using DVD-RB 0.95 free (HC's best mode) and HCbatch 0.16 beta. This works great for me! ;)

EDIT: I forgot to mentioned that if no matrices is selected in HC.INI, then HC's default "MPEG" matrix will be used. In the future, I'll add more custom matrices w/comments to my INI file. I also like to add here that I used to use CCE many of times but I have made my paradigm shift with HC's output. Sure it's a little more processing time added but I always stress quality before time.

[FredThompson]

Agreed, experience with poor encoders leaves a bad taste that lasts a long time. It was the same with the early MP3 encoders like that Xing junk. Compared with LAME, the difference is hard to believe.

I just did the Into the West series which has about 2 hours of video on each disc. Even that was shown to be a "low" bitrate of 2500 or so after encoding. Comparing HC's best quality with the original shows almost no difference. Satellite NTSC MPEG2 is about 2000 on a good regular feed, higher for premium source. Even so, it's pretty darn good. 2k with a capable encoder is a lot better than 3k with a cruddy one.

Is this where I get to needle 2Cool for not registering?... That's NOT too cool http://home.mindspring.com/~fredthompson/Smiley-ROFL2.gif

Why do I think I might get put into the doom9 "time out" section again?...

[2COOL]

Is this where I get to needle 2Cool for not registering?...Well, you can ding me on my procastination on sending a money order for the Pro version since I have a Paypal problem. :(

[FredThompson]

They had me locked out for a few months because of some hacker months ago. Luckily, I get daily emails asking me to "click this link" and enter my account information to get reinstated..http://home.mindspring.com/~fredthompson/Smiley-Nope.gif